What differences does the novel present between men and women’s world views, approaches to relationships, and uses of language? Does Janie conform to the assumptions men have about women’s attitudes?
Hello all! This is Stacy, and I just wanted to start out saying that this was a wonderful choice of a book. The language and characters are very interesting, and I look forward to delving farther into the story. One of the things that really struck me as I was reading was how much the men assume that women are like slow children who need to be told what to do. Coming from the time and place that we live in, this was very shocking to me. The quote that has really stuck with me so far about this is from Janie and Joe's argument in chapter 6. "'You sho loves to tell me whut to do, but Ah can't tell you nothin' Ah see!' 'Dat's 'cause you need tellin',' he rejoined hotly. 'It would be pitiful if Ah didn't. Somebody got to think for women and chillun and chickens and cows. I god, they sho don't think none theirselves.' 'Ah knows uh few things, and womenfolks thinks sometimes too!' 'Aw naw they don't. They just think they's thinkin'. When Ah see one thing Ah understands ten. You see ten things don't understand one.'"(71) The main things that struck me were how even though Janie is standing up for women, she's still doubting herself by saying 'sometimes', and how that Joe contradicts himself when saying 'They just think their thinking'. It sounds like even though they have opposite opinions, they might still not be totally invested in what they are saying. Another thing is how he says women and children are the same as chickens and cows. This shows that he thinks even less highly of women than animals brought up to be slaughtered. This is also one of the times that Janie questions her decision to marry, because of how quickly Joe brushes off her arguments, then says how superior he is to her without a qualm. This book brings up many fine points about many subjects, but gender roles seems to be cropping up a lot. Again, I look forward to reading further, and I hope everyone is having a good summer.
Hi, this is Ami. I’m not going to talk about gender roles, and I haven't gotten super far in the book but I've noticed how much the narrator seems to favor women over men. A number of times, the narrator will talk about women in a much more positive way then when she/he will speak about men. The very first line of the book is: “Ships at a distance have every man’s wish on board” (1). The narrator then goes on and says, “For some they come with the tide. For others they sail forever on the horizon, never out of sight, never landing until the Watcher turns his eyes away in resignation, his dreams mocked to death by Time. That is the life of men” (1). In this quote, the narrator suggests that the lives men lead are frustrating, sometimes humiliating, and their dreams fleeting. The narrator then goes on to talk about women. She/he says, “Now, women forget all those things they don’t want to remember, and remember everything they want to forget. The dream is the truth. Then they act and do things accordingly” (1). The narrator’s description of women makes them seem much more efficient, and makes it seem like they do what they want, when they want, and they don’t wait for it. When comparing what the narrator has said to describe women to the description of men, the description for women seems to be a lot more positive. I’ve found that the narrator keeps doing this in the book: where he/she will generalize genders and usually, it sounds as though he/she is favoring women.
Warning: SPOILER ALERT if you haven’t finished the book
Part 1 of 2
Does the narrator favor women over men? I believe instead that she is showing the development of a particular female character through three unique relationships with men over the course of 24 years. When Janie marries Logan Killicks, she does so only to appease her grandmother, and has been led to believe that love magically arises from marriage. “Finally, out of Nanny’s talk and her own conjectures she made a sort of comfort for herself. Yes, she would love Logan after they were married. She could see no way for it to come about, but Nanny and the old folks had said it, so it must be so. Husbands and wives always loved each other, and that was what marriage meant. It was just so.” (20)
At the beginning of the marriage to Logan, he is very nice and tries to keep Janie happy. By the end of the first year, the honeymoon is over, Janie is little more than a slave to her husband, and she has realized that marriage does not create love. What I first noticed was the specific sentence heralding the beginning of the end of her marriage: “Long before the year was up, Janie noticed that her husband had stopped talking in rhymes to her.” (26)
When Janie first meets charming Joe Starks, she’s at the end of a hard, unsatisfying marriage. Logan’s mistreatment has left her especially susceptible to a suitor who at first appears to be an ideal match. Joe goes out of his way to appear respectful, admiring, caring, sympathetic and noble in order to convince Janie to join him in helping to establish and run a new town. “De day you puts yo hand in mine, Ah wouldn’t let de sun go down on us single. Ah’m uh man wid principles. You ain’t never knowed what it was to be treated lak a lady and Ah wants to be de one tuh show yuh.” (29) Almost as soon as they reach Eatonville, Joe shows his true colors. Janie’s first warning sign comes when the crowd at the street-lighting party calls for her to make a speech, and Joe says: “Thank yuh fuh yo’ compliments, but mah wife don’t know nothin’ ‘bout no speech-makin’. Ah never married her for nothin’ lak dat. She’s uh woman and her place is in de home.” (43) Joe’s response surprises Janie, and changes their relationship. “It must have been the way Joe spoke out without giving her a chance to say anything one way or another that took the bloom off of things. But anyway, she went down the road behind him that night feeling cold.” (43) After that, Joe puts Janie to work (against her wishes) in their general store and becomes possessive, trying to make her less appealing to potential rivals by insisting she cover her hair with a kerchief. Joe continues to speak for her, and behave as though she is his property rather than his partner, until Janie knows that this second marriage is dead: “She wasn’t petal-open anymore with him. She was twenty-four and seven years married when she knew. She found that out one day when he slapped her face in the kitchen.” (71) They remain married and thirteen years later by the time Joe sickens and dies Janie has realized that she needs a man who can listen as well as talk.
When Janie meets Tea Cake, she has been liberated from Joe’s control and any obligation to pursue a relationship, owing to the money she has inherited from Joe’s recent death. She sees in Tea Cake everything that was missing in Joe, a person she had originally thought was perfect for her. Unlike Joe (and unlike a number of fortune-seeking suitors), Tea Cake doesn’t immediately pursue a relationship with her. Janie, however, feels “…as if she had known him all her life.” (99) Slowly they move towards a relationship despite town gossip about the difference in their ages and the shortness of time since Joe’s death. The gossip causes Janie some worry, but they still pursue their love, move to Jacksonville for work, and marry. In Jacksonville Janie discovers the extent of Tea Cake’s impulsiveness, but the incident actually brings them closer together.
After they’ve moved down to the muck, they drift apart a little bit, mostly because of the women who are interested in Tea Cake, who reassures Janie she’s the only woman for him. Tea Cake also becomes more possessive of Janie, because of attention she’s receiving from other men, insisting that she stay near him all the time. Despite the two-sided jealousy, they still remain very much in love. After Tea Cake’s death, Janie doesn’t feel that he is gone. “Of course he wasn’t dead. He would never be dead until she herself had finished feeling and thinking. The kiss of his memory made pictures of love and light against the wall. Here was peace.” (193) Janie has finally found true love.
After thinking about her grandmother’s words about marriage for some time, Janie decides that marriage should contain love: “But anyhow, Janie went on inside to wait for love to begin” (22). Very little time passes by and Janie starts to realize how false her claim is. Her first husband, Logan Killicks stops being affectionate towards her, and starts to have an attitude towards her and her lack of physical labor. Logan tells her, “You done been spoilt rotten” (26). He wants Janie to help him with wood because she has not done any kind of manual labor. She does labor inside the house because as a woman in that era, she is taught that her “place” is to be a homemaker. One morning, when Logan orders Janie to hurry up to help him, Janie replies “You don’t need mah help out dere, Logan. Youse in yo’ place and Ah’m in mine” (31). Logan does not appreciate Janie’s attitude and assumption that he knows about where someone “belongs” and rebuffs her ideas, saying that she has no particular place. Logan’s harsh attitude towards Janie makes her understand that being married will not necessarily assume a loving relationship.
In Their Eyes Were Watching God, Janie takes a carefree, loving approach towards her marriages with men. Janie tries to do this style of relationship with Joe because first he presents himself to her as someone who wants to effect change in an African-American community. However, Joe uses his previously-earned money to effect change in the town. Soon after earning popularity and becoming the “mayor”, he gains power over the lives of the people in the town, including his own wife. In one conversation, when Janie cannot find a letter, Joe automatically assumes that because Janie did not do as he asked the letter went missing: “Ah done told you time and time again tuh stick all dem papers on dat nail! All you got tuh do is mind me. How come you can’t do lak Ah tell you” (71)? In this and many other scenarios, Joe does not bother to ask Janie politely to do something but takes control and orders her to do it. When Janie does a specific action incorrectly or something happens out of misfortune, she is immediately blamed by Joe for not following orders. Joe strongly believes that all women are plainly stupid people. Janie protests, “Ah knows uh few things, and womenfolks thinks sometimes too” (71)! Joe responds, “Aw naw they don’t. They just think they’s thinkin’…You see ten things and don’t understand one” (71). In this case Joe not only insults women in general, but directly offends Janie, not caring about how his words affect her. Joe’s choice of language greatly disturbs Janie, and no matter how much she tries to fight it, Joe will not care and continue to force his opinions into her.
I recently finished the book a couple of days ago. Although I didn't think it was a great book I found Janie absorbing and an interesting protagonist. She has a sharp tongue, is quick witted, and entertaining. Janie marries three times throughout the story and each one is a very different experience with the three different men. The first time is with Logan, whom she was arranged to be married to and doesn’t love her at all. He is a brief character and isn’t much of one either. He requires Janie to do all the womanly work around the house and Janie is sick of being in a bad relationship. Then she meets Joe, whom spins her stories of being rich, never having to work again, all she has to do is run away with him and get married. And so she does, but Joe turns out to be what I think as a clone of Logan, or worse. After being named mayor of a small town, power goes to his head and he begins treating the towns people like scum, including his wife. He makes rude comments about her looks, and the way she runs the store. He refuses to let her socialize, and is so possessive of her he won’t let her wear her hair down, afraid that another man will try and take her. Joe goes too far and begins insulting her looks and then her age saying “What’s the matter wid you, nohow? You ain’t no young girl to be getting’ all insulted ‘bout yo’ looks. You ain’t no young courtin’ gal. You’se uh ole woman, nearly forty.”(79)“Yeah, Ah’m nearly forty and you’se already fifty. How come you can’t talk about dat sometimes instead of always pointing out me?”(79) is Janie’s answer. Her talk is responded with laughter from the town and a slap to her face from her husband. She finally gets back at Joe while he’s on his deathbed. “You ain’t try tuh pacify nobody but yo’self. Too busy listening tuh yo own big voice.”(87), but even on his deathbed he won’t admit his faults. Soon after she meets Tea Cake. Tea Cake is the man I approve most of in this book. He is the sweetest and kindest of the men. Even though Janie was about fifteen years older than Tea Cake, they were lovely together. At first the age difference was startling to me but eventually it was barely noticed because of their good chemistry. But this is not to say he isn’t derogatory towards women. One scene inparticular made me lose respect for him. “Being able to whip her reassured him in possession. No brutal beating at all. He just slapped her around a bit to show he was boss.”(147) So yes there was a line between the genders, it was a very different setting. It wasn’t unexpected because of the time period but it was still interesting to see the way women were treated. Although I found it slightly disgusting.
Hi everyone, it’s Kira. I’m going to talk about gender relations in the novel, both how the author relates each gender, and how each gender relates to one another. This is extremely prominent, and the first two paragraphs of the novel are relating the two genders. On page one, Hurston writes, “Ships at a distance have every man’s wish on board. For some they come in with the tide. For others they sail forever on the horizon, never out of sight, never landing until the Watcher turns his eyes away in resignation, his dreams mocked to death by Time. That is the life of men. Now, women forget all those things they don’t want to remember, and remember everything they don’t want to forget. The dream is the truth. They act and do things accordingly”. These passages are very important to keep in mind for two reasons; first, it relates both genders and sets the tone for the characters of the story, and second, it gives an idea of Janie and her character, before you even meet her. The first part of the passage talks about men, and seems to highlight the differences between Janie’s first two husbands. Her first husband, Logan, doesn’t have much in life, and Janie is one of the better things to happen to him. However, he ends up treating her badly and driving her away. He represents the dreams that come in with the tide. Since there isn’t much mention of Logan after Janie leaves, we can’t know what happens to him. The future of his dreams remains a mystery, and if we never find out if they do “come in with the tide”. The second part of this passage is represented by Janie’s second husband, Joe. He’s representative of the second part of the passage because unlike accepting a bleak existence like Logan, Joe goes out to the new town, gets the woman he wants, becomes mayor, and does what it takes to get what he wants. Though he does get what he wants, he does take his time beforehand. This is represented by the line “His dreams mocked to death by time”. The second passage, or part of the passage, is about women. Janie is one of the only women examined closely in the novel so far, (pg. 60~), and this part of the passage is very alike to her. Like Janie, the passage says that women “act and do things accordingly”. This is illustrated when Janie marries Logan to please Nanny, but runs away with Joe when she realizes that she isn’t living a happy life. This is an example of acting, then doing things accordingly. In addition to this passage, there are multiple others illustrating the relations of men and women by the author. It’s interesting to see men and women through Hurston’s eyes, and then see how they treat each other in the novel. More specifically how men mistreat women in the novel, but the author still favors both equally. I think it will be interesting to see how Hurston’s opinions change throughout the rest of the novel.
Maria, here, with a short entry. The very first passage, which has been mentioned several times in this section of the blog, has also struck me as a very important. Hurston acquaints the lives of men as being objective of things they are unable to control, their dreams being located on "ships at a distance." Women's lives, however, are structured differently. "The dream is the truth," implying that they take control of their lives based on their emotions. They're objective things that they are able to control, unlike men. There are what have struck me as Hurston's opening statements on gender. I'm not sure I agree with these opinions, but they set the tone for the way the story portrays gender.
A recurring argument that I have noticed throughout the posts so far focuses on the idea that Janie’s first husband, Logan Killicks, mistreated her. Although the tone of the section where Janie is living with him sounds very on edge and accusatory, I would disagree with the idea that Logan ever actually did anything worse than say a few harsh words to Janie, at least as far as I have read (around page 60). On the contrary, he alone of her three men does not beat her, he offers her a safe and secure home, and in return asks, in a way that seems reasonable enough to me, that they share the work in a semi-equal fashion rather than being caught up in gender roles, with the woman in the house and the man in the field. Janie, who is so caught up in these roles, has no appreciation of what he is offering when he says “You ain’t got no particular place” (31) in conjecture with her insisting that she belonged solely in the house. This suggestion of working more equally, although on the one hand portraying Logan as being overly demanding in that he is trying to make his wife do something she does not wish to do, shows Logan to be open minded to the idea that women can do just as much as men, an opinion that does not seem to crop up anywhere else in this book so far. In terms of the relationship between Logan and Janie, although Janie was definitely unhappy, I think that he got a lot worse of a bargain, by marrying somebody who would never love him, apparently because of how he looked.
In response to what Ellen said, I think that Janie faces her own struggle in the midst of their marriage because she tries to force herself to love someone in order to achieve what she thinks is happiness based on the ideals of her grandmother. When Janie says that she wants to leave Logan, he does not blame it on his controlling demeanor, but by saying Janie is spoiled. However, I find it cowardly that she ran away from Logan to find love with another man, as opposed to trying to work out her problems with her husband. I can see how Logan would see her as being somewhat unappreciative and I think that Janie should have tried to forget about her perfect idea of marriage and what she was told by her grandmother in order to realize the flaws that came within their relationship. I think that Janie’s decision to leave him is not based on her having to fulfill certain gender roles (although she has a fixed idea on how men and women should act), but on what she thinks it takes to be happy. She leaves Logan not for Jody, but she leaves to find a perfect marriage.
Brian, I agree with what you say in that I definitely believe that Janie left Logan to find her dream man. What I was trying to emphasize in my first post though was that I don't think that Logan did anything unpardonably wrong during their marriage, that Janie did give up to easily or even that she didn't try at all in getting along with her husband, that she was very close-minded in her dealings with him and that he had some very liberal ideas that she ignored.
Hey it’s Abby. I hope everyone’s having a good summer. I have not read very much of the book yet but something that stood out to me is that Zora Neal Hurston writes about oppression in the black community, instead of showing whites oppressing blacks. Most of this is gender related but some is related to class and age. On page two Janie is walking back to her house dressed in overalls and her neighbors see her and start criticizing her: What she doin coming back here in dem overhalls? Can’t she find no dress to put on?-Where that blue satin dress she left here in?-Where all dat money her husband took and died and left her?-What dat ole forty year ole ‘oman doin’ wid her hair swingin’ down her back lak some young gal?-Where she left dat young lad of a boy she went off here wid?-Thought she was going to marry?-Where he left her?-What he done wid all her money?-Betcha he off wid some gal so young she ain’t even got no hairs-why don’t she stay in her class?(2.) In this quote Janie’s neighbors are criticizing her current attire and her love life because they think she’s acting out of her age, class, and gender. They are annoyed that she is not dressed like a woman of her class and that she’s dating someone a few years younger than her. Later in a fight between Logan and Janie, Logan says “You ain’t got no particular place. It’s wherever Ah need yuh. Git uh move on yuh, and dat quick” (31). Logan thinks woman are his slaves. He treats Janie as though she were only alive to serve him. He oppresses Janie because of her gender. Janie is angry she is oppressed by Logan so she leaves him for Joe. It seems to me the author is trying to show that black people are not only oppressed by whites but they are oppressed by each other.
While I haven't read very much of the book yet, I - like many others - was initially struck by the writing style of the novel. Hurston's comparisons were what caught my attention the most. There is a clear example of the juxtaposition of men and women in the first two paragraphs. The "life of men" is one of nostalgia and longing. Hurston writes: They sail forever on the horizon, never out of sight, never landing until the Watcher turns his eyes away in resignation, his dreams mocked to death by Time. That is the life of men . . . Women forget all those things they don't want to remember, and remember everything they don't want to forget. The dream is the ruth. Then they act and do things accordingly (1). The comparison makes life sound like two entirely different experiences. For men, life is something that cannot be controlled, and the best memories are forever unattainable. Women, on the other hand, are depicted as having a full understanding of how to balance all that they experience. I enjoyed the switching of traditional gender roles - here, the men are portrayed as helpless, while the women are strong. However, this description also makes the women seem rather cold and apathetic. The comparison gives the men a reckless, emotional mien, while the women seem almost robotic. I look forward to seeing how this theme is developed over the course of the novel.
I find Maddy's analysis of that quote interesting, because while in terms of the actions of the different genders (emotional as compared to robotic) it fits, in my opinion at least, very well throughout the book, but, contrary to what she hopes, the men still manage to hold the power despite their thoughtlessness.
I haven’t quite made if halfway into the book thus far, but I’m noticing how much deeper the sexism is in Janie’s second husband, Joe, than in her first husband, Logan. While Logan definitely seemed to want to control Janie, he never went out of his way to make himself seem superior to her or make her feel dehumanized. Joe, however, feels the need to humiliate Janie in public and in private by constantly insulting her intelligence and frequently beating her. He tries to convince her that women are among the same range of intelligence as animals and that they are incapable of any kind of complex thought: “’Somebody got to to think for women and chillun and chickens and cows. I god, they sho don’t think none theirselves. … They just think they’s thinking.’” (71) Joe also feels a need for Janie’s complete submission to his will, making her eventually become numb to her surroundings. The life is sucked out of her, and she becomes solely capable of doing as he says. “The years took all the fight out of Janie’s face. For a while she thought it was gone from her soul. … Mostly she lived between her hat and her heels, with her emotional disturbances like shade patterns in the woods--come and gone with the sun.” (76) While Logan did attempt to keep Janie under his thumb, he didn’t break down her entire sense of self the way Joe did. Joe has no respect for women whatsover, and feels the need to make her feel less than human.
Joe's treatment of Janie is much worse then Logan's, because while Logan wanted her to obey him, Joe wanted to own her. He broke her down, and tried to control every aspect of her, body and mind. Joe likes control of everything around him, but Janie in particular he tried to own. I think that he does not truly believe that she is incapable of complex though, rather he thinks that if he doesn't make her believe that then she will leave him.
Joe seems to me to be very worried that she will leave him for another man, as she left Logan. Because he thinks that she will leave him, he breaks her down so completely that she can't. Joe Starks needs to be very clear that he is in control, so he tries to control everything about her.
Hi, I’m Laura and I will be attending Maybeck next year as a senior. Janie encounters dissatisfaction with both of her husbands because they expect her to work for them. When Joe Starks asks her to run away with him she is persuaded because of the leisure he offers her. He tells her “You ain’t got no mo’ business with a plow than a hog is with a holiday… A pretty doll-baby lak you is made to sit on de front porch and rock and fan yo’self and eat p’taters that other folks plant just special for you.” (29) However, soon after business consumes Starks and he has Janie work in the town store even though she doesn’t want to. He has her wear a head rag to cover up her hair because he doesn’t want other men to notice the beauty of her hair. The head rag is a symbol of Stark’s masculine control over her and when he dies Janie ceremoniously burns the rags. The society that Janie lives in with Starks is very patriarchal. Women are seldom mentioned and when they are it is to show how helpless they are or that they are goggled at for their beauty. Examples of this are of Daisy (68) and Mrs. Robbins. Mrs. Robins claims that her husband isn’t feeding her and that she is hungry and ends up disgracing Starks for not giving her enough meat. She is looked at in a negative light by the community and Coker says “Ah could break her if she wuz mine. Ah’d break her or kill her. Makin’ uh fool outa me in front of everybody.” (75) Janie desperately wishes to be part of the community she lives in but Starks won’t allow it. Whenever he sees her mingling or chatting with others he orders her to do something for him or to get back to work. He won’t let her chat on the porch with the others or go along with him for something as special as burying the mule. When Starks is elected as mayor, Janie is asked to say a few words but Starks declines for her, saying “Thank yuh for all yo’ compliments, but mah wife don’t know nothin’ ‘bout no speech-makin’. Ah never married her for nothin’ lak dat. She’s uh woman and her place is in the home”. He doesn’t give her a chance to speak because he doesn’t want for her to be given any attention. When Janie makes a mistake, the response she is given is augmented because she is a woman. When Janie messes up on cutting Mixon’s tobacco, he wags it up in the air and says “Uh woman and a knife—no kind of uh knife, don’t belong tuhgether.” (78) Later on, after Janie humiliates Starks in the store, she thinks to herself “Why must Joe be so mad with her for making him look small when he did it to her all the time?” (80)
In response to what Ami said, I’m not sure I agree that Hurston portrays women in a better light then men. Hurston writes that, “ships at a distance have every man’s wishes on board. For some they come in with the tide. For others they sail forever on the horizon, never out of sight, never landing until the Watcher turns his eyes away in resignation” (1). Several people have interpreted Hurston’s description of a man’s life to show that for men dreams are unattainable desires. However, when Hurston says that the “ships”, the men’s dreams in other words, “come in with the tide she tells that a man’s aspirations do indeed come to fruition on occasion. The author’s main point here is not whether a man can achieve his dreams, but that he has no control over whether or not he makes his dreams a reality, as he must rely on his symbolic sea to bring his dreams “in with the tide”.
Others have also voiced the opinion that Hurston portrays women as having a more acute ability to prioritize and keep a kind of balance to their lives. In a way I agree, because Hurston does imply that women hold a higher amount of control over their lives than men when she says that, “women forget all those things they don’t want to remember, and remember everything they don’t want to forget” (1). But the way I see it, even if these women are exercising more control over their lives, at the same time they show a deep kind of denial by forgetting the memories that are not as favorable for them. Hurston writes, “The dream is the truth. They act and do things accordingly” (1). Although women try to make their dream a reality, thus initiating more control than the men, at the same time these dream are formed based on their ignoring the troubles of the past, and I fail to see how that could be purely beneficial to them.
All in all this passage doesn’t make purely positive or negative assumptions about either gender, instead focusing on discussing the vices and virtues of both.
Something I noticed is that although Janie is clearly mistreated in her first two marriages, she sort changes her mind as to what she wants regarding gender roles. I think this has to do with almost wanting to rebel against what her husband wants her to and/or is making her do. In her first marriage her husband feels she needs to help him with what, throughout the book, is considered “man’s work”. Because he is pushing for her to do this, she refuses, saying, “You don’t need mah help out dere, Logan. Youse in yo’ place and Ah’m in mine.” Contrastingly, when she’s married to Joe, who is extremely demeaning and sexist towards her, Janie longs for respect and the ability to do simple things that Joe wont allow her to do, like participate in jokes and play games and what not. Even the town wants her to give a speech when they first move there, to which Joe says, “Thank you fuh yo’ compliments, but mah wife don’t know nothin’ ‘bout no speech-makin’. Ah never married her for nothin’ lak dat. She’s uh woman and her place is in de home.” I think basically what her desires come down to are freedom, which she doesn’t really receive until Joe dies. I think part of it is about not having to be confined into gender roles, but mostly, her actions and desires are based on wanting to be able to make her own decisions, and not feel, like Natalie mentioned, owned and controled.
“Ships at a distance have every man’s wish on board. For some they come in with the tide. For others they sail forever on the horizon, never out of sight, never landing until the Watcher turns his eyes away in resignation, his dreams mocked to death by Time. That is the life of men.”
“Now, women forget all those things they don’t want to remember, and remember everything they don’t want to forget. The dream is the truth. Then they act and do things accordingly.”
Those were the first two paragraphs on the first page of this novel (Page 1). These two paragraphs are talking about the dreams of men and women. And how they differ from one another. Some mens dreams come in very quickly, and they are realized sooner than others. For women they do not wait, and watch for their ship to sail in. They believe that “The dream is the truth.”
These paragraphs are a good examples of the gender differences in this novel. In the beginning of this novel I portrayed Janie’s character as a women who let the men she was with treat her any way. Throughout the book I noticed a fair amount of sexist parts. Parts where her husbands told her not to talk, and parts where they made her seem like she belonged in the kitchen. Instead of loving Janie, they made her feel like she belonged to them, and that she was their property.
As the story progressed she developed a hard shell, and began to not put up with the way Logan, and Joe treated her. There are a few parts in this novel where Joe hits her, and she doesn’t say a word. She just walks away. I actually believe that with Janie not saying anything or reacting to those events, she is saying a lot.
Hi again, So far in the book there have been a few notable passages on gender roles. The two that are the most prominent in my mind are 1) Various passages in the first chapter, and 2) Her argument with her first partner. In the first chapter alone, there are more references to differences in genders than there are in the rest of the book that I have read so far. "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board" (1). This first passage of the book makes us wonder whether "man's" means mankind, or males. I wondered about this for a while actually, because if it was only restricted to males, females would not have their wishes granted, or you could even go so far as to say that they are perceived as not having wishes at all. Or perhaps she means that only men have a lust for travel and the sea. "The men noticed her firm buttocks like she had grape fruits in her hip pockets; the great rope of black hair swinging to her waist and unraveling in the wind like a plume..... The women took the faded shirt and muddy overalls and laid them away for remembrance. It was a weapon against her strength and if it turned out of no significance, still it was a hope that she might fall to their level some day." (2) This passage shows the differences in the way she imagines men's and women's minds work. The men lust over the woman while she passes, while the women look at all of the flaws and all of the things that they could use against her in the future.
Thurston seems to feel that men and women are very different from one another, but that they can be both complimentary and antagonistic. She sees romantic relationship as an ideal natural state, probably partly because she feels like the differences make each gender incomplete until they are in relationship with the other one
In the novel the way the world is viewed changes dramatically between males and females. When Sparks was still alive and married to Janie he was always the one who went out to social outings and got to talk to people while his wife Janie stayed in the shop and worked all day. When Sparks goes to leave for the donkey's funeral Janie wants to go too: "'How come Ah can't go long wid you tud de draggin'-out?' Joe was struck speachless for a minute. 'Why, Janie! You wouldn't be seen at uh draggin'-out, wouldja? Wid any and everybody in uh passle pushin' and shovin' wid they no-manners selves? Naw, naw!' 'You would be dere wid me, wouldn't yuh?' ''Dat's right, but Ah'm uh man even if Ah is de Mayor. But de mayor's wife is somethin' different again'" (60). Sparks shows that only men can go out to social outings where they are seen in public because it would be un-lady-like for a women let alone the mayor's wife to go to the donkey's funeral. This falls under how the world is viewed by Sparks and how Janie is affected by it.
Many of the commenters are bringing up great points on how Joe Starks is worse than Logan as a husband. I personally think that although what everyones saying is correct, was Joe actually worse than Logan? There must have been something about Joe that was better than Logan if Janie made the rash decision to run away with him and get married. Or maybe it's just that Janie wanted so badly to get away from Logan she left with Joe. Either way everyones bringing up great discussions and I'm enjoying reading all of them as it gives me a different perspective of the book. Especially the comments here about Joe being sexist and Logan not. Joe was vey sexist and possessive but I'd always thought wasn't Logan as well? Re-reading the passages with him in it I have to say that though he was often rude at times and a pig, he didn't make derogatory statements towards women.
Hey everyone, this is Alicia. I’m still fairly early in the book, and have only met Logan and Joe of Janie’s husbands, but Hurston’s views on gender roles and genders are already very clear. She makes two different but not quite opposing points, one concerning individuality and independence from assigned gender roles and the other the necessary difference between genders, both in nature and in nurture. It is clear from the beginning of the novel that Janie stands out from the rest of the women of the time, but the concept of individuality is also shown in her relationships with men and the men themselves. Logan, although he considers himself superior to Janie and therefore in charge, has unconventional views of what women can and should do. He declares, “If Ah kin haul de wood heah and chop it fuh yuh, look lak you oughta be able tuh tote it inside” (26). He shows sexism in other points of the novel, for instance in referring to a mule as “all gentled up so even uh woman kin handle ‘im” (27). He has a demeaning view of women and of Janie, but he thinks they have responsibility and a place outside of the home, which shows uniqueness in his character. Joe is even more sexist than Logan, which shows from his initial arrival in the plot, but in an entirely unique way. He immediately reduces her to her looks alone and disregards her capabilities. He tells her, “You behind a blow! You ain’t got no mo’ business wid uh plow than uh hog is got wid uh holiday! You ain’t got no business cuttin’ up no seed p’taters neither. A pretty doll-baby lak you is made to sit on de front porch and rock and fan yo’self and eat p’taters dat other folks plant just special for you” (29). Although this statement can at first appear to be kind-hearted flattery, it shows how strictly sexist he is. Throughout their union, he treats her as a useless pretty object, incapable of much and easily stolen by customers of his store. In the quote, he compliments her on her looks, and, as we later find out, falls in love with her solely based on them. When at first one could conceivably convey this comment as sympathy, telling her she deserves better than labor, it immediately becomes apparent that he really means that she should not be allowed to do any real work, which is constricting and offensive to Janie’s character. This brand of sexism fits in with the time, as does Logan’s, in a different way. They both contribute to society’s affect on Janie’s individuality, and these two brands of sexism are in themselves unique and individualistic, showing that, although gender roles were supported, individuals are never fully defined by them. In addition to statements about individuality, Hurston makes statements about the differences in the lives and mentalities of men and women. She does not specify whether these differences are from inherent nature or societal influence. One particular example, although it’s been mentioned before on this blog, is after Janie realizes that she will not love Logan simply because she married him. Hurston writes, “Janie’s first dream was dead, so she became a woman” (25). There are two possible interpretations of this quote. The first is that women, rather than men, let go of the dreams that they know are impossible, and choose to recognize reality and move on. The second is that society had forcefully molded that role for women, particularly colored women. They were slaves of the masters and subservient to the slaves, their men. Even after the slaves were freed, before Janie’s birth, their social standing was the lowest. Most wishes they had were quickly killed or taken away, and they had to continue to live without complaint, at least not to those above them. Janie questions this throughout the novel, and the strict constraint of society’s sexism is what drives her to defy it, and to be an individual. However, she still identifies with the previously quoted statement of “becoming a woman,” which shows that Janie is a woman, but she does not play society’s role of a woman.
One of the special things about this book is that Hurston takes the role of a stereotypical African American woman and turns it upside down. Janie does not represent a woman of weakness, serving her only purpose of being a pretty sight while cleaning the kitchen or baring the children. She is a powerful woman with feelings and dreams. Instead of her husbands dominating her they are her pedestals. Hurston creates this woman to display a message. All women have the potential to fulfill their dreams, whether Anglo Saxon, African American, or any race for that matter. I applaud her for not only creating this book but for her beliefs. Women and men are alike in many ways. We share the same potential and deserve the same respect.
I think you brought up a great point. Since there is not as much dialogue between Jainie and Logan as with Jainie and Joe it is hard to compare the two as husbands. I agree with you that we do not really know how sexist Logan might be and I wonder if he too is demanding about how Jainie should be as a wife. To me it seems that Logan allowed Jainie to speak her mind and that they must have been somewhat equal in their relationship as Jainie is very comfortable to tell him how she feels. Maybe it is because of how soon Jainie and Joe rushed into their relationship that she is not able to see the demanding and condescending part of Joe that she is later so unhappy with.
Despite their intricacies and differences, Logan and Joe are fairly similar. The two should both be looked on as “compound figures” in their relationship with Janie. The text depicts both Logan and Joe in two distinct “phases”. The first is the “courting phase” in which both men try to win the love of Janie. The second phase is, for lack of a better name, the “marriage phase” in which both men have succeeded in “winning” Janie and marrying her. The two men are similar in their phases. Both Logan and Joe flatter Janie and show themselves of for her in the first phase. Once they have won her, though they still love her, their affection becomes less apparent. The two men, as admirably pointed out in previous entries, have very different personalities. Logan is “steady and dependable”, He works with what he has and though he loves Janie she finds him unattractive and wants more. Compared to Logan’s humbleness, Joe is exciting with his big city attitude, education, and big dreams. However, beyond that, there really isn’t much of difference in who’s better than the other. After all, in terms of making Janie happy, neither quite succeeded. They both have their intricate differences, but both make Janie unhappy by not allowing her to be free. With Logan she, “began to stand around the gate and expect things”(25). She wasn’t happy and she wanted more from the world, not a marriage with an ugly farmer much older than her. With Joe, she, “got nothing from Jody except what money could buy, and she was giving away what she didn’t value”(76). She is happy in neither relationship, so despite how different the two men are from each other, as far as Janie is concerned, they’re both the same man. The wrong one.
One thing that I have noticed throughout the novel, is that Janie is always found to be doing the stereotypical tasks that women are supposed to be doing. For example, after Joe Starks's mule dies, she wished to participate in the funeral because she feels obligated to be there. However, Joe thinks that, as woman, Janie may not be mentally prepared for it. So he asks her to run the town store instead. Upon this, Janie retaliates verbally and asks him why she has to and why she cannot go. Joe responds with this:
Dat's right, but Ah'm uh man even if Ah is de Mayor. But de Mayor's wife is somethin' different again. Anyhow they's a liable tuh need me tuh say uh few words over de carcass, dis bein' a special case. But you ain't going off in all dat mess uh commonness. Ah'm suprised at yuh fuh askin (60).
Because of the time period and context of the quote, it makes sense for Starks to want to protect Janie against seeing a dead body, even if it is an animal. But, I find it to be down right sexist. Even though this may have been appropriate in the time period of the novel, Joe exhibits the characteristics of power hungry to me. I think this quote shows that although Joe loves Janie very much, he shelters her much to often.
Another element I think this quote connects with is the fact that Janie does not know much of the community. If Janie were to go out to town events and branch herself out, she may not feel as lonely. One thing that I wonder about is if all the other women in the town may be as lonely as she is?
In Their Eyes Were Watching God, the narrator describes men and women very differently. According to the narrator, women act like “the dream is the truth” (1). I take this to mean that for women, life is what they make it. They live life without looking back, only living in the present, with no regrets. Men, however, go through life hoping things will happen the way they want, and not doing anything about it. In relationships, men are the ones in control, and women just run around the house trying to please their husbands. Janie does not fit this mold. She thinks and acts for herself, and resents being oppressed by anyone. She is an independent spirit, and, in relationships, wants to be equal to the man. In her first two marriages, she doesn’t feel equal at all, but she finally meets Tea Cake, who lets her do what she wants (mostly), and even takes her to baseball games, hunting, and all sorts of things that Joe didn’t let her do.
Elena, in response to your point about there having to be "something about Joe that was better than Logan if Janie made the rash decision to run away with him," as you put it: I'm not going to pass judgment about whether Joe or Logan was the better husband and companion to Janie, but Janie's initial motivation for running off with Joe is clear from the moment we meet him. He's sharp-dressed, smooth-talking and full of flattery and charm. Janie is young and impressionable, and stopped receiving such treatment from Logan soon after they were married. Joe says, "'A pretty doll-baby lak you is made to sit on de front porch and rock and fan yo'self and eat p'taters dat other folks plant just special for you' (29)". He's young and charismatic and makes Janie feel wanted; those are three things that Logan will never be capable of doing or being. I don't see it that "Janie wanted so badly to get away from Logan she left with Joe." She probably wouldn't have left Logan if Joe hadn't come along. Rather than Joe being a salvation she's been hoping and praying for, he comes along serendipitously and presents a more attractive alternative to the way Janie would go through life with Logan.
(this is a makeup post for the first post date, sorry I was being lazy like an idiot X__X) Whats up guys, its Devon,
PERCEPTIONS OF THE IDEA OF MARRIAGE: I think gender roles of marriage in this book are extremely subjective based on the character and their set of personal beliefs. Some characters claim to have one belief set and act in a totally different towards their spouses.
Logan Killicks is very respectful towards Janie in the beginning of their marriage, Janie even makes a point of pointing out how he doesn't make her do much but cook a meal or two and how respectful he is. However as time passes he becomes more demanding of her and ultimately it seems like he wanted more of a beast of burden than a wife to love and cherish, of which he does neither. Ultimately this ends their marriage and she goes and runs off with Jodie Starks. Jodie treats her like a queen and puts her on a pedestal for people to look at. sadly this pedestal resides in two places: The town store where she is to stay all day, and their house. Jodie believes that women are trophies to show off and should not have a say in things because they have no authority. Janie doesn't exactly like this, and (***SPOILER ALERT) after Jodies death(SPOILER ALERT***) she happily gets married to Teacake. Teacake is a young man with spunk that captures Janie's heart from the start. Teacake loves her and treats her right, more importantly Teacake treats Janie just the way she likes to be treated and believes that being completely honest is the way to go. I think this is the only person that Janie really falls in love with. Teacake feels that the woman is equal and a marriage is a partnership. And in the end (***SPOILER ALERT)Teacake ends up losing his life to protect hers(sadly) But also tries to take hers(I find this hilarious), but it was really only because he was rabid and violent. (SPOILER ALERT***)
Every husband has an idea of what the woman should be in the marriage and that is kind of what makes this book, its the story of Janie's search for her idea of love(and the perfect husband)
One thing I'd like to point out is that Janie does not conform with the assumptions men have about women's attitudes. She is smart, resilient, and cherishes freedom. She looks out for her own needs rather than the wishes of the men she marries. That's not to say she doesn't look out for the needs of her husbands, but her first two marriages ended with her finally trying to find what she's looking for rather than satisfy the primarily sexist expectations of the men she was with.
Gender poses a major role in Their Eyes Were Watching God; it practically drives the whole story. Gender differences and the assumptions based on gender are what make Janie leave Logan Killicks and what makes her unhappy with Joe and happy with Tea Cake. Logan thinks a woman should be like a servant: obedient, doing everything her husband tells her to. Janie does not conform to his idea of what a woman should be, and after his love for her fades, he berates her and grumbles openly about this, which makes her leave him for Joe. Joe Starks promises not to work her or force her to do anything like Logan did. She believes him and so they go to an all-black town, where Joe becomes mayor and kind of breaks his promise to her by making her work in the general store he built, saying it's for her own good as the mayor's wife and for her "image". His idea of woman is as an accessory or ornament; he almost treats her like a pet or child, and makes assumptions of what's good for her or what she wants. He gets kind of drunk in his own power and feels the need to correct her every little mistake, something she hates. He treats her as a higher being, something that should be idolized and kept under lockdown. He treats her like an object, partially because she is so beautiful. Once again, she does not conform to his ideals, but he is so chastising about it that her real personality retreats and she lives a shell of herself, in a way conforming to it eventually. The reason she really has a lasting relationship with Tea Cake, that perfect union she was searching for, is because he treats her as an equal, someone to be respected and not kept on a leash. No one is inferior to the other in his views on gender, and so Janie is happy to live on the muck with him and happy to work with him. That was kind of her idea of a perfect union all along.
I have read 15 chapters of this book so far and I am not surprised in the way in which gender roles are portrayed. During the time that this book takes place, women often had lower status than men and were expected to do housework and other mundane tasks. Janie often seems to ignore the way she is treated compared to men, but she still seems to want to have rights. One part of the book where this shows is on page 43, after Joe becomes the Mayor and Janie is given the opportunity to make a speech. Before she can say anything Joe starts talking and says that Janie would not be able to make a speech and that her place is at home doing housework. When Joe says this, she thinks about how she never has tried to do a speech but that she probably could. She then forgets about it and it doesn’t continue to bother her. I think that Janie should have said something at that moment and she probably would have felt proud of herself. Recently in the book Janie has been standing up for herself and is evolving as a character.
The gender roles in Their Eyes Were Watching God for me were unsurprisingly depressing, and though that continues to be true as I re-read parts of the book, there is also the prominent theme of Janie trying to overcome the place she finds herself in as a black woman. Though oftentimes the choices she makes attempting to head in that direction backfire, she does try to stay true to her own spirit. The spirit she has of chasing after a dream, though it may not exist. While this is all well and good, uplifting and such, she does end up getting herself into situations that are worse then her previous ones, and she often seems blind to worrying signs. Though her first husband was not the ideal, and certainly not her choice, his wish for her to work alongside him was rather positive when compared to the opinion of the stranger she meets, Joe Starks. The opinion that she “is made to sit on de front porch and rock and … eat p’aters dat other folks plant special” (29) along with his description of her as a “doll-baby” makes it clear that the new man wants her as a possession rather than a wife. Though it’s a depressing set of options, Janie’s original husband Killicks probably would have been a better choice, though if she had chosen him there wouldn’t be much of a story left.
This book deals with a lot of sexism such as: keeping woman indoors, in the kitchen, at home, doing the wash etc... But the reader also has to but this book in context. At the time sexism was a normal everyday thing and wasn't seen as wrong at all so what might seem outrageous to use is totally normal to the characters of the novel.
I agree with Jay, I think that the main theme when it comes to gender in this book is partner vs. property. It's the difference in whether somebody views you as their equal, and as somebody they can have a relationship with, or whether they view you as being just another animal that they have to take care of and keep alive. It's either a pleasure or a burden. Viewing somebody as your property lets you treat them in ways you would never treat a partner.
I'd also like to explore the idea of things that are off limits, or forbidden. Forbidden fruit tastes the sweetest, as they say. The main character always wants things that she can't have, but of course, she gets them anyway. This is the most apparent in the amount of time that goes by before she switches lovers, and it is usually impulsive. Especially the first switch, from Killicks to Starks. She is married to someone who turns out to not be perfect (what a shock), so she runs away with a complete stranger. I know this may not be the right page to do it on, but I would like to talk more about Janie's impulses and how they affect her throughout the book. Why is she easily dissatisfied, what keeps her at a more superficial level, and doesn't allow her to go deep enough to have a longer attention span with someone?
Hi, everyone. There’s a scene in particular that I think speaks to the role of gender in Their Eyes Were Watching God, but it also kind of works with character relations as well. I’ve noticed that in Janie’s development of her identity, she begins to abandon the ideals of traditional femininity. But I think that this is achieved somewhat strangely in regards to her relationship with Tea Cake. Even though Tea Cake is somewhat “in charge” of the relationship because he is a man, Janie is exposed in a way to a masculine perspective. To me, what seemed like a significant point in their relationship is when Tea Cake goes out to gamble and Janie picks up dice for the first time. I feel like despite its significance to socioeconomic backgrounds, this act of touching something that is otherwise reserved for men shows a lack of fear and a curiosity into the life of the opposite sex. I think that their differences draw the two of them together, and their exposure to each others lives helps break down the gender barrier in some regard.
I totally agree with Daniel's point above. I have a very similar opinion of Janie's and Tea Cake's marriage but one thing that confused me completely was the scene where Tea Cake talks about beating Janie. During their second year in the Everglades, he and Sop-de-Bottom are working in the fields when Sop-de-Bottom says, "'Lawd! wouldn't Ah love tuh whip uh tender woman lak Janie! Ah bet she don't even holler. She jus' cries, eh Tea Cake?' 'Dat's right.... Ah didn't wants whup her last night, but ol' Mis' Turner done sent for her brother tuh bait Janie in and take her way from me. Ah didn't whup Janie 'cause SHE done nothin'. Ah beat her tuh show dem Turners who is boss'" (148). Having witnessed Janie's and Tea Cake's relationship from day one, I am confused and a little disturbed by this. Tea Cake never disregarded gender but he formed their relationship on a basis of mutual respect and an enjoyment of each other's company. All this does not seem in keeping with displaying dominance through spousal abuse. It seems to be an expression of insecurity, that he doubts Janie's love enough to beat her. I can't remember any other points where Tea Cake displayed this facet of his personality and while this bubble of violence does add a degree of reality to their marriage, I would never have thought Tea Cake would resort to such measures in order to make a point to people who wouldn't necessarily know the point was being made (does that make any sense at all?...). - He's beating his wife in total privacy in order to make a statement to other people.
It seems like every time Janie starts being in love with a new man he treats her differently than her last partner. For example, Logan wants her to share the work equally. Joe wants her to stay in the female gender role (stay in the house and store and take care of things), and Tea Cake wants to play and have fun together (even if that means taking a woman out of her traditional gender role and bringing her to a baseball game or hunting).
I agree with Genevieve's opinion about Tea Cake. Hurston makes it clear that his abuse toward Janie is not because of her actions, but because hitting her would "relieve that awful fear inside of him" (147). However, I, somewhat felt that Tea Cake would have eventually abused Janie because his entrance in the novel is somewhat similar to that of Joe Starks (he enters Janie's life and she immediately takes an interest to him and everything seems to go in her favor for a few chapters). I don't know if gender plays a role in their abuse (at least, not as much as pure dominance does), but a man beating his wife becomes a repetitive concept in the book.
This is the only question blog I will ever post. Why does the author make so little of Teacake beating Janie? Is it, as the story says, because he beats her only to "relieve that awful fear inside him"? Why doesn't the beating destroy their relationship? For her previous relationships, this behavior has pretty much heralded the end of the marriage. What do you guys think?
So in response to Quinn I'm not sure what year this book was set in but Tea Cake beating Janie could have been acceptable at the time. And in her other relationships Janie doesn't love her husbands in the first place but she does love Tea Cake. Also at that time no one to teach Janie that about domestic violence because people weren't taught that using violence is wrong. It wasn't a big of an issue back then as it is today.
I both agree and disagree with Abby. On one hand, Janie’s love for Tea Cake overrides the one time he beat her, as well as it being common for husbands to mistreat their wives at the time. Tea Cake also never even threatened to beat her before and never did again, and he has treated her better than both of Janie’s previous husbands. I disagree with Abby in that I do think she is aware that domestic violence is bad, even though it wasn’t as big of a deal then. I think the fact that Tea Cake knows it’s wrong helps as well, and the fact that they are able to push through it and keep their relationship strong proves how much more solid her relationship is with Tea Cake. Having said that, I do think it was taken a bit to casually on Janie’s part, and Tea Cake wanting to ‘show who’s boss’ should not have been a valid excuse.
Responding to something Alexander posted only a week ago, he wrote something that confused me a bit. He wrote, “Janie often seems to ignore the way she is treated compared to men, but she still seems to want to have rights.” I tend to disagree with the statement that she ignores the way that she is treated. Janie conforms to what each of her husbands demand from her, whether it is obedience or being locked up in a high-class position. Most of the time in the store, Joe Starks forces Janie to work with an inhuman amount of efficiency. Only towards the end of each of her relationships does she truly push for more rights.
In response to Aaron's post, I agree that Janie is quite aware of the inequality that she lives under, but I think that she obeys Logan and Joe because she feels that it is her duty as a wife to perform as her husband wishes her to. When she marries Logan, her grandmother tells her that she will learn to love him, and I don't think that idea goes away even after she leaves him. I think that she does what her first two husbands want her to do because she wants them to be happy with her to allow love to grow. When she meets Tea Cake, she realizes that obedience does not bring love, and the way he tells her that she can do a lot shows her even more how unequal her previous marriages were.
I actually kind of disagree with what Brandt said. I agree that Logan and Joe keep Janie controlled, and she allows this because she thinks it will help her to love them in time. However, (and I'm not sure if this has been brought up before so I'm sorry if I'm repeating someone else's entry) Tea Cake doesn't treat her entirely as an equal. He asks her to work with him in the fields, and he certainly respects her as a woman and as a person, but Janie is still very obedient towards Tea Cake. She doesn't work in the fields until he tells her to, and he basically decides where they live, and where they go during the storm, etc. Also, there is that scene where Tea Cake beats Janie. Although it was a different time period and things like that were more normal and accepted, I think the way Tea Cake and the other men discuss the beating is actually very disrespectful towards Janie. When the other men are commenting on how they'd like to beat Janie because it would leave marks on her light skin, Tea Cake seems to take pride in that. It's like he prides himself on having a wife light skinned enough to bruise easily. Also, one man comments that his wife would fight back or scream, while Janie was more docile and cried. Janie lets Tea Cake beat her and doesn't struggle. She obeys him even when it directly physically harms her. I'm not saying she doesn't love Tea Cake or that he doesn't love her. It's definitely the most functional relationship she has in the novel, and they really do love each other, but the relationship is still unequal, with Janie following and Tea Cake leading.
I wanted to bring up the difference in the way Janie is treated by men and women—sorry if this has already been talked about. In many instances in the novel, women view her negatively and judgmentally while men view her sexually and often derogatorily. I found that she is talked about by both genders, whether negatively or positively, however men and women do view her differently.
This is well seen in a passage very early on: “The men noticed her firm buttock like she had grapefruits in her hip pockets; the great rope of black hair swinging to her waist and unraveling in the wind like a plume; then her pugnacious breasts trying to bore holes in her shirt…The women took the faded shirt and muddy overalls and laid them away for remembrance. It was a weapon against her strength and…it was a hope that she might fall to their level some day,” (2). These opinions of Janie last throughout the novel. She is constantly gossiped about, especially by the women, and flirted with by men, whether or not they know that she’s married. This is seen a lot when she first moves with Jody; a lot of men approach her and make passes at her despite knowing her to be married to Jody. Consequentially, she gains a reputation among the women, after which anything she does that could be even slightly misconstrued cause people to gossip about her.
I find it really interesting how this is very similar to society today. It is not uncommon for women to gossip about and dislike other women because they receive a lot of male attention. I think this novel really shows how timeless this sort of behavior is.
I agree with Brian’s statement on Tea Cake. Tea Cake may have been by far the best of Janie’s three relationships, but he wasn’t by any means perfect. Once Janie ran away with Tea Cake, I found myself disliking him more and more. Though their relationship is “stable” before Tea Cake died, if he had lived longer I believe that his wild nature and poor impulse control would certainly lead to a poor ending.
Janie’s first impression of women’s place in society comes from her knowledge of her mother’s experience with men. By the time she is a teenager she knows that she was the product of her mother’s rape. This makes her feel that women are not respected in the same way as men. Her grandmother who was a slave raised Janie and this heightens her sense of disempowerment. Her mother left so she does not have her as a role model. When Janie is seventeen her grandmother tells her she has to marry Logan Killicks. Janie feels that she should have a choice but that was how it was for women during that time. Logan expects Janie to be subservient even though at the beginning of their marriage he promised to be more generous. When Janie does not follow his directions he threatens her with violence. The morning after Janie discusses leaving, Logan threatens her and says, “Ah’ll take holt uh dat ax and come in dere and kill yuh!”(31) Even though this makes Janie uncomfortable it was not abnormal in her society. Janie was unusual in her unwillingness to tolerate his abuse. As the marriage progresses Janie expects to grow feelings for Logan, but instead she becomes more and more dissatisfied. She is so desperate to leave that she makes the quick decision to go with a man she barely knows. Joe Starks promises to treat her decently which is part of what draws her to him. As he gains power and clout in the new town she slowly realizes that while he is not as verbally abusive as Logan, he still does not fully respect her opinions and her potential to be am influential person in society. During a town meeting he says, “mah wife don’t know nothin’ ‘bout no speech-makin’. Ah never married her for nothin’ lak dat. She’s uh woman and her place is in de home.” (43) Before Janie’s first marriage she was not as conscious of the different gender roles. But when she marries Logan it makes the differences between men and women seem more personal. When she leaves that marriage she thinks she can escape those issues and gain empowerment. Although she does gain some power and safety, she still lacks the ability to fully express herself.
I agree with Theo's statement about Tea Cake's nature. With Tea Cake's boasting about gambling, and Janie's unwillingness to do anything but stand back and watch, I think it could have developed into something far worse than just shooting dice with the guys. He seemed to be one of those types of people that would have jumped at any type of situation to make good money, no matter what it does to him or his wife. He one day just came home and told Janie they were moving, and while they made good money on the muck, they had to live in what can only be called a shack. While it turned out all right mostly, he did move them into hurricane territory, which was the thing that got them killed, and other "opportunities" might not have went so well. I think that Janie loved him, but her love made her ignore the danger that she was placing herself in by following Tea Cake blindly.
Hello everyone, it’s Kira. I’m here to reply to Stacy’s first post here, about how the men in the book treat women like they’re incompetent and inferior. I agree with her point, and just wanted to add on, and discuss how this changes when Janie meets Tea Cake. (At least from what I’ve read). Janie spends with majority of her time with men being disrespected and made fun of. She is usually only paid attention to when someone needs something or she has made a mistake. She isn’t even allowed to play chess because she’s believed to not be smart enough for it. However, when Janie meets Tea Cake, she is treated as an equal, much to her surprise. So, even though women are usually treated poorly in the novel, Tea Cake is an example of a respectful male character in the novel.
To agree with and add on further to Anna’s comment. Once Janie is left with out her second husband after his death, she encounters a period of extreme empowerment as a woman. She was not a wealthy widow who was not too old to remarry. This time after Joe’s death was a time of realization for Janie. She had many men come to her telling her the dangers of not having a husband, but Janie enjoyed her freedom. She could go anywhere or do anything she pleased. When she first started seeing Tea Cake, she continued to feel that sense of freedom, for he was like a young man, and the two of them went doing all sorts of things that Joe Starks would never have let Janie do. Of her three husbands, Tea Cake allowed Janie the most freedom, and that supports the fact the Tea Cake was also Janie’s first true love and best husband.
This falls both under gender and character discussion, but I feel more so under the gender category.
One of things I have really noticed about Tea Cake is that he treats Janie as an equal. Marriage as we all know, is a two way street no doubt about it. In Janie's first marriage to Logan, she was treated as a stereotypical housewife; only doing cooking, cleaning, and meaningless tasks in her opinion. Logan did however, have her best interest at heart. He always wanted her to take time to relax. Her second husband, Jody, did not seem to keep this in mind. Jody had her running the store; this could maybe have been a step up for her from sweeping the porch at Logan's. But Janie wanted to be more than a storekeeper. She wanted to participate in conversations and discussions occurring on her own front porch.
Because Jody was very closed minded, so it seemed to me, he did not feel that Janie had the privilege to participate due to the fact that it was a "manly activity." After their argument at the store Janie takes away his manhood.
"Naw, Ah ain't no young gal no mo' but den Ah ain't no old woman neither. Ah reckon Ah looks mah age too. But Ah'm uh woman every inch of me, and Ah know it. Dat's uh whole lot more'n you kin say. You big-bellies round here and put out a lot of brag, but 'tain't nothing' to it but yo' big voice. Humph! Talkin' 'bout me lookin' old! When you pull down yo' britches, you look lak de change uh life" (79).
This quote really shows how Janie longs to be treated equally even though she is a middle-aged woman. When Tea Cake comes along though, he teaches her to play checkers, to hunt, and to fish. He teaches her life skills that allow her to be independent while at the same time becoming close to him.
"Tea Cake and Janie go hunting. Tea Cake and Janie gone fishing. Tea Cake and Janie gone to Orlando to the movies. Tea Cake and Janie gone to a dance... Tea Cake and Janie playing checkers; playing coon-can; playing Florida flip on the store porch all afternoon as if nobody else was there. Day after day and week after week" (110).
This quote shows how Tea Cake has come to treat Janie as an equal. She does the things that Tea Cake does and sometimes visa versa. Because of this treatment, Janie learns to grow as a woman. Maybe all these experiences with Tea Cake, and later on the hurricane, all her to be the independent and strong willed woman she is.
I would agree with Hero, in saying that Tea Cake, for the most part, treats Janie as if the two are equals. In the highlights of their relationship, Hurston gives us several examples of how Janie and Tea Cake bond, such as fishing and hunting (as Hero wrote). However, one instance that occurs in the book exemplifies the inequalities of their marriage. When Tea Cake hits Janie as a way “to show he was boss” (147), the reader sees an insecurity be unleashed in the form of abuse toward Janie. In comparison with the other men in Janie’s life, Tea Cake is less controlling of her, but in my opinion, I think that the kind of relationship she shares with Tea Cake is also because she tries to act independent (regardless of whether or not she succeeds in doing so).
I would like to point out that Joe Starks meant to give Janie a privilege when he appointed her to run the store. His ideas of status and the needs and wants of Janie were completely wrong. Joe thought he had given Janie all she could have wanted, an expensive house, the privilege of running the store and the prestige and class of being the wife of the mayor. In keeping Janie separated from the town-folk, Joe meant to show Janie her class. In reality, the store was a prison to Janie, and what she wanted was freedom from it and the ability to be an equal to those around town. While Joe saw her position as higher in class than the town-folk, Janie saw herself as a slave to the people. But Joe’s intentions (at least in the beginning) were good. Of course I agree that Tea Cake was Janie’s most fair, fun and loving husband, and their relationship was the most spirited and genuine.
I think that Joe thought that he was giving Janie all she wanted, but he didn't understand that she was a person, not a status symbol for him. Other than that, of course, he was a perfect husband.
Hi everyone this is Todd, an incoming freshman, and I thought that the characters in this book were very sexist towards one another. For instance, when Janie's grandmother was telling Janie a story about slavery, she said that the slave master passes on the work to the niggers and the niggers pass it on to the niggerwomen. However, the black women especially Janie are just putting up with whatever the men do to them. Another example would be when Tea Cake hit Janie for the first time and afterwards Sop-de-bottom told Tea Cake he was lucky to have a woman that just takes the beating. They need to fight back like Sop-de-bottom said his wife does. At least Tea Cake took hunting and fishing, activities thought to be strictly for men. I think all Tea Cake wanted was to have fun with his wife and didn't care what people thought. -Todd b.
Brandt, I agree that Joe provided a lifestyle and money for a comfortable life. But other than that, he was basically a jailer. Janie wasn't allowed to go where she wanted or talk to whoever she wanted. At first Joe had good intentions, but as he grew older, he began to belittle Janie for his own comfort and to gain sympathy. I'd say he's pretty far from a perfect husband
I believe that Joe Starks was a good person but a bad husband. When he was alive, and with Janie, he expected too much and gave too little, but he was still a relatively successful person, and although he was not wealthy because he was black, he had many privileges and possessions that any other person in the town would have loved to have. Basically, he lived like a lower-class white man with a little bit more power. Even when Janie was still in the "honeymoon phase", where Joe Starks looked amazing in her eyes, he still did not have youthful energy like Tea Cake. I am not saying Tea Cake is any better, but he did have a more appealing energy than Joe Starks. Joe only appeared to be intimidating with his personality, but I believe it was truly his status, nothing more.
Todd, while I agree with you that everyone in this book seems sexist, I don't think that Tea Cake taking Janie hunting and fishing necessarily shows that he isn't sexist. The hunting maybe, because a gun is involved, but if you look at the people they spend time with it is much more common for men and women to work side by side doing the same thing all day long, and Janie used to go fishing with her friend Pheoby even before meeting Tea Cake.
I have rather conflicted feelings about Joe. While I want him to be a good guy, he just seems to self-centered and greedy to be a truly respectable person. He dazzles Janie with talk of big plans and adventure and then treats her with a big house and presents. I think Janie was just starstruck when she married Jody, after the excitement died down and she was left with a demanding, self important husband and a store to run, she realized that she had made a mistake. She was just to young to know better.
Joe is definitely sexist, he thinks of Janie as this trophy he won, so therefor, he owns. I think that Joe actually does love Janie, he just loves himself more. He pampers and imprisons her, breaking her willpower down so she cant be her own person. In the end he just wants to own and control her.
Hey. This is Mickey. I think that Joe has Narcissistic Personality Disorder, causing him to seem sexist when really he just acts that way towards everyone. I'm not saying that their is no sexism at all, rather that it comes out more than it would from someone else with the same level of sexism, but no disorder. Narcissistic Personality Disorder causes a person to only feel worthy if they are completely surrounded by people who love them. In essence, the way that they show their love for someone is by wanting that person's love.
I agree with Amhara on most parts, except that I don't think he wants to "own and control her" as you said, but that that is the only way he knows how to show his affection. Understanding this makes it a bit easier for me to tolerate him.
I agree with Mickey's point about Joe's possible disorder; a very good demonstration of his narcissism is on page 78, when Janie cuts a hilariously lopsided plug of tobacco and the men loafing in the store start laughing "good-natured[ly]." Joe doesn't seem to understand that no one really cares that the plug is misshapen and thinks their laughter is malicious and directed towards him (I'm thinking about why that would be; I guess because he considers Janie kind of his property, and thus a reflection/extension of himself). He flips the events to be negative and focused on him, when it wasn't remotely either of those things; he freaks out and starts shouting at Janie.
The only part where I don't share your opinion is where you say that being controlling is "the only way he knows how to show his affection." I don't think the way he treats Janie is an expression of affection - I don't think he respects or trusts her; he is extremely paranoid and possessive. Due to his feelings of ownership, that "she was in the store for HIM to look at, not those others" (55), he makes her wear her hair up, a blatant attempt to symbolically smother her freedom as a woman.
Good point Ellen - my understanding of him is that because Janie is his wife and in society at that time the husband was supposed to be the dominant figure in the relationship, he interprets a lot of Janie's expressions of self-reliance and interactions with other men as threats to his dominance. He's also the leader of the town and is pretty responsible for raising it to the status it is at that point in the story, so I understand that he would feel like the image of his power is something worth protecting. I don't mean to sound like I think Joe's a calculating megalomaniac - I just don't always see his possessiveness as a manifestation of caring.
I would also agree with Ellen's statement. To be blunt, Joe is psychologically abusive of Janie. However both partners in the marriage rationalize this behavior because it was not uncommon in society at that time and location to degrade women or trivialize their contributions. What we see as Joe’s abuse was seen as proper behavior by many at the time, especially Joe. We must ask, does Joe think his behavior is inappropriate or cruel towards Janie? He often seems to think that his control over her is what is best for her. Although our outside perspective allows us to see the truth, those caught in abusive relationships often rationalize the behaviors of their partners (this applies to both the abuser and the abused). This pattern is further perpetuated in the novel due to society’s views on the "proper" dynamic of marriage and behavior of women at the time.
Although Joe definitely exhibits some narcissistic qualities, I think the heart of the matter lies in his insistence that he always be in control. His constant search for power, over the townspeople, Janie, and in essence his own life, is what leads to, as Olivia so aptly put it, his psychological abuse of Janie. In some ways he uses his power wisely, and his leadership works wonders for the community as a whole, but when it comes to Janie he abuses his power dreadfully.
I agree with Rose's idea also because I can see that Joe does nit really understand what his true power is over the towns people. He thinks obtaining power means using it to get whatever he wants, but that's not true. To be the head, the leader means someone who understands what his/her responsibility is to create a better environment for community. Honestly his ideas are great, no hate on that but the way that he chooses to go about those tasks is wrong. Especially when it comes to Janie. No matter who he is to the town, he is still her husband and he needs to treat her like one. It's like he doesn't know when to use his so called power. I can't really blame him much because it's not one of the things that he's did on purpose but it is a shame to have seen/ imagined him die the way he did.
A passage I found interesting was on page 31 and it was from part of a heated exchange between Logan and Janie: “Logan dropped his shovel and made two or three clumsy steps towards the house, then stopped abruptly. ‘Don’t you change too many words wid me dis mawnin’, Janie, do Ah’ll take and change ends wid yuh! Heah, Ah just as good as take you out de white folks’ kitchen and set you down on yo’ royal diasticutis and you take and low-rate me! Ah’ll take holt uh dat ax and come in dere and kill yuh!”. This part of a long passage is a piece of an argument that eventually leads to Janie leaving Logan because he wanted her to be the submissive obedient housewife that he thought she should be rather than she speak out and talk back to him. At the end of the long dispute she eventually leaves him and sets off to find another man to have in her life.
Hey it's Hannah Miller! So I've noticed there has been a lot of discussion of Joe's need to have power over the townspeople and Janie. I actually attribute his need for control as simply one of his attributes. It is true, at least in the first 2 marriages, that it is the man's job to protect and care for his wife. But I think Logan don't do enough of it, and Joe does it so much, it hurts Janie. But I think his flaws aren't actually part of the gender discussion, and more of character discussion. So I've already mentioned one difference between men and women in the relationships in this book: that the man is the protector. Well, of course, Janie changes that. She is not exactly a feminist, but she stands up for herself because she was raised to do so. By her third marriage, she is caring for Tea Cake as much as he cares for her. She tends his wounds, she helps him at his job, she cares for him when he is sick. (see previous blog post)
"Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board. For some they come in with the tide. For others they sail forever on the horizon, never out of sight, never landing until the Watcher turns his eyes away in resignation, his dreams mocked to death by Time. That is the life of men. Now, women forget all those things they dont want to remember, and remember everything they don't want to forget. The dream is the truth. Then they act and do things accordingly. (pg 1)
While the prose may be at times simplistic, and the page length very reasonable, this is a novel swirling with important themes. Sexism and ignorance rule Janie's first two marriages, while her life with Teacake is relatively untroubled, or is it? To me, even the situations under which she first interacts with Teacake speaks of poor attitudes towards women. The townspeople are inflamed by the relationship because they think women should not have the right to choose their own partners based on how much they like them, instead of how much they can provide towards a woman. While Teacake himself does have many assumptions about what women are capable of or what they would like to do, he is fairly easy going about surrendering these assumptions. He's not entirely close-minded, one might say. To me, this highlights one of the key components of creating a society free from gender-inequality: open-minded-ness. Teacake is a good husband and human not because he has an inherently less sexist worldview than Janie's previous husbands, but because he is able to incorporate more mature thought and ideas into his worldview.
Anyway, I hope everyone's getting in a good last week of summer.
In this book I could not help but notice that Janie is always expected to not partake in discussions, and always serve the men in the town without needing to be told twice and to go and fetch anything that the men need. When I first started reading these scenes with this type of interactions, I was a bit surprised seeing how the men didn’t really do much for themselves and always had the women get them things. And the women would be obedient wives, and get their husbands whatever they needed. I kept thinking that these women were like the men’s own personal servants, and would do almost anything they asked, because they were the ones who provided for them.The way the men treat the women, especially how Joe Starks treated Janie in the store, I just didn’t see what the point of the over-reactions to the tiniest things were and trying to prove himself the man with control. The women are treated like they don’t have minds of their own, and like they don’t have their own voices, and they only live to serve the men, cook for them, and raise their children. However, in certain parts of the book, it displays both men and women’s views of each others wisdom. There is a part when the men are talking about women and they are saying they have no brains and they think they are so smart when they have no idea what they are talking about and whatnot. Then Janie goes into the conversation and says that women know a lot more than men do in some ways.
Julian I find it interesting the extremes to which Janies first and second husbands push the topics of gender and sexism. Janies first husband Logan Killicks seems to take sexism to an extreme, in that he basically owns her and can make her do whatever he wants her to do. He seems to treat her extremely nice, just so that he can trap her in to a position where he can make her do work. On the other side, Joe seems to take sexism to a whole different extreme. He views her as weaker than men. She needs to be pampered and taken care of. It’s not her place to take part in many of the conversations that the townspeople have. It also is in his mind not the place of a woman to take part in activities such as dragging the mule out of town. It seems that her first husband made her do things she wished not to do, and her second husband restricted her from what she really wanted to do. Both men are sexist in their own ways, and neither really seems to better than the other, though it seems Joe really does think he’s doing the right thing, whereas Logan didn’t really seem to care.
I agree with what Rose was saying about Joe. Though he was a great person for controlling the town and organizing it, he uses this controlling attitude in his marriage with Janie. This attitude has a negative effect in their marriage and as soon as Janie tries to show any control or power in their relationship, he feels as though he has been emasculated completely and will not speak to her. The way he ignores her because of this is completely and utterly immature.
In response to what Ami and Rose said, I found it really interesting to read the change in Joe in his marriage with Janie, from when he has no power to when he has a lot. When he first meets Janie, he is extremely sweet to her, and as soon as he has substantial power in the town, this power transfers over into the marriage, in which he goes from being sweet and caring to controlling and abrasive. Something similar happened in Janie's first marriage; Logan starts out very sweet and seemingly willing to do anything for Janie, and abruptly becomes less and less kind and more and more demanding. I think it also has to do with power but more in the sense that he didn't 'have' Janie before so he had to work for her, and now that he thinks she's indefinitely his, he feels as though he has some power of her and therefore feels like he can control her.
One of the many things I noticed towards the end of the book is the miss trust between many of the characters. For example when Lias told Tea Cake about the storm, Tea Cake did not care to listen to him because he believed that he knew the land more than everyone, that nothing of such storm would occur. Another moment is when the black folks mistrust Janie for killing Tea Cake intentionally. Personally I thought they were stupid or dumb or both because it shows their insecure mind in thinking that Janie would kill Tea Cake, I mean really Janie would have died for Tea Cake. Never the less, some of the people never really understood each other, so maybe that's where the mistrust comes from.
"De nigger woman is de mule uh de world so fur as i can see. Ah been prayin' fuh it tuh be different with you. LAWD, LAWD, LAWD!" (14)
While this passage is partially about race it is also apparent that the struggles of women is an apparent theme in the book. The depressing message that nanny is sending to Janie is a wake up call that she must marry inorder to have a good life and positively represent strong african american women. Janie is nieve and believes that being in love is more significant then being an independent woman. This sets Janie up for the tribulations in her future like Jody Starks and her unsuccessful marriage with Brother Logan Killicks. The wisdom that nanny imparts on Janie and the relationships that Janie has with all the men in her life starting with the kiss at 16 and going all the way to the death of Tea Cake are catalysts for Janie's development as a women.
I’d like to add on to what Haven said about Nanny’s lessons to Janie. Janie has no choice but to take Nanny’s strong advice because she has taken care of her for her entire life, even though she knows deep down that what Nanny tells her is not how she wants to live her life. It takes her a long time to break free from the standards that Nanny set but she finally does when she marries Tea Cake.
In the story it seems that the more beauty a woman possesses: the more power she has over men. In Janie’s case, it’s a double edged sword since in the story the higher attraction raises the like of more freedom since she has a greater chance of winning a man but again: the more attractive she is: the more likely she’ll excite envy and jealousy along with feelings of deep affection. Janie’s “whiteness” gives her more freedom but it also exposes her to more cruelty.
hi all. Hope you've had a good summer. I’ve noticed that for the most part men are sexist, but the women don’t seem to find this wrong or unfair. Janie, however, notices this and she doesn’t like it. At the end of the book, when she has finished telling her story, she says that there are “two things everybody’s got tuh do fuh theyselves. They got tuh go tuh God, and they got tuh find out about livin’ fuh theyselves.”(192) It’s as if she wants other women to notice how unfairly they are treated, to realize that marriage doesn’t create love, but love marriage. I think that she tried to live for herself and that’s why she went with Tea Cake against everybody’s advice, because it was what she wanted. She feels that following ones heart is the right thing to do because she has seen what happens when you don’t. She’s been in a loveless marriage, with Logan Killicks, which she ran away from because she followed her heart and it told her to go with Joseph Starks. But her relationship with Logan, while better then that with Starks, wasn’t what she wanted. He was too bossy, which kept her from following her heart because he wanted to think for her and his heart and hers were not the same. So after his death she went with Tea Cake because in him she found the relationship she wanted: love and be loved.
I’ve noticed that Janie doesn't like authority figures, and I think that's part of why she emphasizes the way men act towards women, as if they own them, often throughout her various relationships.
Hi, it’s Lev. I want to talk about a fairly major theme in the book: Oppression of women. Women would not be allowed to do things that they would be able to do now a days. It seems to happen almost routinely in the dialogue, for example on page 93 she says to Pheoby: "Tain't that I worry over Joe’s death, Pheoby. Ah just loves this freedom." when Tea Cake invites Janie to play checkers, she thinks "Somebody wanted her to play. Somebody found it natural for her to play." And this makes Janie think even more about how oppressive her marriage with Joe was. Or on page 147 When Tea Cake feels jealous that Janie is getting attention from other men "Before the week was over he [Joe] had whipped Janie. Not because her behavior had justified his jealousy, but it relived the awful fear inside him. Being able to whip her reassured him in possession." One of the most moving examples of oppression to me is when Nanny says to Janie "De nigger woman is the mule of de world as far as I can see. Ah been prayin' fuh it tuh be different wid you." While we may be shocked by this, I think that Zora Neale Hurston included it because it was a part of the culture at that time, and it makes the book seem more real.
To comment on what Emiko said about Janie’s marriages, I think that what Janie’s first two marriages lacked was respect, more than they lacked love. I believe that both Logan and Joe loved Janie, and Janie loved Joe at first but they did not respect her or give her any freedom. They both thought they could tell her what to do where as Tea Cake gave her freedom to make her own choices and was kind to her, as well as loved her.
I agree with Emma that a lack of respect was the main dysfunction in Janie's first two marriages. However, I think love still does have something to do with it. Janie's husbands may have loved her in a way, and she may have tried to love them, but their relationships weren't as natural as Tea Cake and Janie's. Logan and Janie married because of Janie's grandmother, while Joe simply represented freedom from her first marriage, but Tea Cake is the first man Janie truly falls in love with before marrying him. Tea Cake respects Janie, unlike either of her other husbands, but I also think Janie does love Tea Cake more than either of her other husbands, and that's why their relationship works.
I'm not sure if this has been touched on already, but I just wanted to comment on the relationship between Janie's hair and her womanhood. She is consistently noticed for her hair, many men are attracted to it, and it causes many men to be envious as well. When Joe is threatened by Janie, he makes her tie up her hair, yet as soon as he is gone, she lets down her hair, showing that she has still managed to maintain her womanhood and independence. Ultimately, Janie manages to stay in control of her hair, and womanhood, using them for her own good and power.
In response to Isaiah’s post: I would have to disagree with you I believe that Janie’s beauty limits her freedom. An example of this is after Jody dies and she finally has freedom everyone wants to take it away. Janie’s many suitors are interested in her because of her beauty and wealth. Every time Janie tries to be free someone else tries to limit her and keep her beauty away from others, such as the time that Jody made her cover her hair in the store because he did not want other men to touch it. Janie is restricted by people who crave for her beauty.
Gabe, I completely agree, I would even say it is a mix of her womanhood and her freedom. When she lets her hair down, she is relishing in the freedom of it, along with embracing herself as a woman, because she is aware of the strong power her hair has over men.
Regardless, i think the conflict is her inner search for satisfaction is some respect. I had trouble wording my first post, and am finding that I completely agree with Carrie
I completely agree with Carrie. Joe and Logan are both attracted to her because of her hair, as are some of the men in the town, and this causes them to be sweet to her, but it also causes them to reduce her to her looks and refuse to see beyond them, completely restraining her personality and forcing it to be unseen. An example of this is with the speech that Joe stops her from making. He comments that she can't make a speech because that's not her skill, and that her purpose, and the reason he married her, was her beauty. (And he adds on that she does household work, but that was required of all women at the time.) The fact that Joe forces Janie to bind up her hair with a cloth in the store symbolizes this lack of freedom.
Logan just wanted to marry her because she was pretty and Joe wanted like a woman to do womanly duties within his own house, in the beginning he was actually a good husband but as he got older he got grumpy rude and treated Janie horribly. She found Tea Cake my chance and he ended up being the perfect catalyst to what she wants (but doesn't know he wants) which is true independence away from men. However she finds true love in Tea Cake but kills him for her rights to a life.
I definetly agree that Janie takes an increasingly maculine tone as the novel progresses. Adding to this is the fact that she is nearly twice as old as Tea Cake (40&25) which makes her his senior and provides if not a dominant place in the relationship, a more equal one.
hello, i agree with Todd that it seems that both genders cannot get along. the men are constantly treating the women badly, like not teaching them how to play games or sometimes beating them. the women, however, often think of the men as brutes (sometimes understandably) and also consider the men to be trying to think of ways to con them. i'm not saying that all of the characters are like this, like how Tea-cake teaches Janie checkers and then hunting, and how Janie refuses to believe when Pheoby suspects that Tea-cake is only out for Janie's money. of course, there are plenty of examples of mistreatment between genders. for example, when all of Janie's husbands beat her at least once, or when Janie's narration refers to the men on the porch as "mules and other brutes" (1)
I just wanted to respond briefly to Misha and Gabe's posts...
First of all, in response to Gabe and Misha's posts, that's exactly how I saw/see it. Although I feel more strongly that her hair more symbolizes her freedom. I say that because she let her hair down for herself, to enjoy the feeling of it against her shoulders and to be able to do what SHE wanted with HER body, if you know what I'm saying. After being tied down, almost literally, throughout her marriage with Joe I believe it's a more realistic idea that she was enjoying her freedom through her hair. Not to be redundant, but through my eyes and my interpretation, her objective was not solely to relish her womanhood as much as her freedom, although that may very well have been a part of it.
I think Simone is right about how Janie's marriage with Teacake is more natural than her other two marriages, as it is the only marriage where Janie gets to know her partner before marrying him.
In response to Gabe, I think all of Janie's marriages are "natural". Each marriage shows the different struggles one faces when you search for different "reasons" to get married. In the sense that Teacake and Janie got to know each other first, I think that's more ideal than natural. Janie's first marriage was the only one out of the three that felt artificially produced.
Ari, I mostly agree with your comment, but I would even go so far as to say they are the different struggles one faces when one searches for different reasons to live, and be happy. -Gabe V.
I agree with Abraham that Joe Starks is not an ideal leader. From the get go Starks's intention in creating a town was to have a sense of control and power, not to improve the quality of life for others. He decides to go to Eatonville because it is the only place where he would have a high enough class to take control. "It had always been his desire to be a big voice and he had to live nearly thirty years to find a chance" (28).
Gabe- I think another way of saying it is trial and error. The three marriages all gave a very different perspective on life, Logan Killicks being normal middle class, Joe Starks being high class and rich, and, if Janie hadn't married Teacake with so much money, a lower class life just getting by through gambling and little work.
If one were to marry someone because they were rich that would be one thing. If someone were to marry another because they genuinely had feelings for them, and being rich was just an added bonus, that's another.
Hello all! This is Stacy, and I just wanted to start out saying that this was a wonderful choice of a book. The language and characters are very interesting, and I look forward to delving farther into the story. One of the things that really struck me as I was reading was how much the men assume that women are like slow children who need to be told what to do. Coming from the time and place that we live in, this was very shocking to me. The quote that has really stuck with me so far about this is from Janie and Joe's argument in chapter 6.
ReplyDelete"'You sho loves to tell me whut to do, but Ah can't tell you nothin' Ah see!'
'Dat's 'cause you need tellin',' he rejoined hotly. 'It would be pitiful if Ah didn't. Somebody got to think for women and chillun and chickens and cows. I god, they sho don't think none theirselves.'
'Ah knows uh few things, and womenfolks thinks sometimes too!'
'Aw naw they don't. They just think they's thinkin'. When Ah see one thing Ah understands ten. You see ten things don't understand one.'"(71)
The main things that struck me were how even though Janie is standing up for women, she's still doubting herself by saying 'sometimes', and how that Joe contradicts himself when saying 'They just think their thinking'. It sounds like even though they have opposite opinions, they might still not be totally invested in what they are saying. Another thing is how he says women and children are the same as chickens and cows. This shows that he thinks even less highly of women than animals brought up to be slaughtered. This is also one of the times that Janie questions her decision to marry, because of how quickly Joe brushes off her arguments, then says how superior he is to her without a qualm. This book brings up many fine points about many subjects, but gender roles seems to be cropping up a lot. Again, I look forward to reading further, and I hope everyone is having a good summer.
Hi, this is Ami. I’m not going to talk about gender roles, and I haven't gotten super far in the book but I've noticed how much the narrator seems to favor women over men. A number of times, the narrator will talk about women in a much more positive way then when she/he will speak about men. The very first line of the book is: “Ships at a distance have every man’s wish on board” (1). The narrator then goes on and says, “For some they come with the tide. For others they sail forever on the horizon, never out of sight, never landing until the Watcher turns his eyes away in resignation, his dreams mocked to death by Time. That is the life of men” (1). In this quote, the narrator suggests that the lives men lead are frustrating, sometimes humiliating, and their dreams fleeting. The narrator then goes on to talk about women. She/he says, “Now, women forget all those things they don’t want to remember, and remember everything they want to forget. The dream is the truth. Then they act and do things accordingly” (1). The narrator’s description of women makes them seem much more efficient, and makes it seem like they do what they want, when they want, and they don’t wait for it. When comparing what the narrator has said to describe women to the description of men, the description for women seems to be a lot more positive. I’ve found that the narrator keeps doing this in the book: where he/she will generalize genders and usually, it sounds as though he/she is favoring women.
ReplyDeleteWarning: SPOILER ALERT if you haven’t finished the book
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Does the narrator favor women over men? I believe instead that she is showing the development of a particular female character through three unique relationships with men over the course of 24 years. When Janie marries Logan Killicks, she does so only to appease her grandmother, and has been led to believe that love magically arises from marriage. “Finally, out of Nanny’s talk and her own conjectures she made a sort of comfort for herself. Yes, she would love Logan after they were married. She could see no way for it to come about, but Nanny and the old folks had said it, so it must be so. Husbands and wives always loved each other, and that was what marriage meant. It was just so.” (20)
At the beginning of the marriage to Logan, he is very nice and tries to keep Janie happy. By the end of the first year, the honeymoon is over, Janie is little more than a slave to her husband, and she has realized that marriage does not create love. What I first noticed was the specific sentence heralding the beginning of the end of her marriage: “Long before the year was up, Janie noticed that her husband had stopped talking in rhymes to her.” (26)
When Janie first meets charming Joe Starks, she’s at the end of a hard, unsatisfying marriage. Logan’s mistreatment has left her especially susceptible to a suitor who at first appears to be an ideal match. Joe goes out of his way to appear respectful, admiring, caring, sympathetic and noble in order to convince Janie to join him in helping to establish and run a new town. “De day you puts yo hand in mine, Ah wouldn’t let de sun go down on us single. Ah’m uh man wid principles. You ain’t never knowed what it was to be treated lak a lady and Ah wants to be de one tuh show yuh.” (29) Almost as soon as they reach Eatonville, Joe shows his true colors. Janie’s first warning sign comes when the crowd at the street-lighting party calls for her to make a speech, and Joe says: “Thank yuh fuh yo’ compliments, but mah wife don’t know nothin’ ‘bout no speech-makin’. Ah never married her for nothin’ lak dat. She’s uh woman and her place is in de home.” (43) Joe’s response surprises Janie, and changes their relationship. “It must have been the way Joe spoke out without giving her a chance to say anything one way or another that took the bloom off of things. But anyway, she went down the road behind him that night feeling cold.” (43) After that, Joe puts Janie to work (against her wishes) in their general store and becomes possessive, trying to make her less appealing to potential rivals by insisting she cover her hair with a kerchief. Joe continues to speak for her, and behave as though she is his property rather than his partner, until Janie knows that this second marriage is dead: “She wasn’t petal-open anymore with him. She was twenty-four and seven years married when she knew. She found that out one day when he slapped her face in the kitchen.” (71) They remain married and thirteen years later by the time Joe sickens and dies Janie has realized that she needs a man who can listen as well as talk.
When Janie meets Tea Cake, she has been liberated from Joe’s control and any obligation to pursue a relationship, owing to the money she has inherited from Joe’s recent death. She sees in Tea Cake everything that was missing in Joe, a person she had originally thought was perfect for her. Unlike Joe (and unlike a number of fortune-seeking suitors), Tea Cake doesn’t immediately pursue a relationship with her. Janie, however, feels “…as if she had known him all her life.” (99) Slowly they move towards a relationship despite town gossip about the difference in their ages and the shortness of time since Joe’s death. The gossip causes Janie some worry, but they still pursue their love, move to Jacksonville for work, and marry. In Jacksonville Janie discovers the extent of Tea Cake’s impulsiveness, but the incident actually brings them closer together.
Part 2 of 2
ReplyDeleteAfter they’ve moved down to the muck, they drift apart a little bit, mostly because of the women who are interested in Tea Cake, who reassures Janie she’s the only woman for him. Tea Cake also becomes more possessive of Janie, because of attention she’s receiving from other men, insisting that she stay near him all the time. Despite the two-sided jealousy, they still remain very much in love. After Tea Cake’s death, Janie doesn’t feel that he is gone. “Of course he wasn’t dead. He would never be dead until she herself had finished feeling and thinking. The kiss of his memory made pictures of love and light against the wall. Here was peace.” (193) Janie has finally found true love.
After thinking about her grandmother’s words about marriage for some time, Janie decides that marriage should contain love: “But anyhow, Janie went on inside to wait for love to begin” (22). Very little time passes by and Janie starts to realize how false her claim is. Her first husband, Logan Killicks stops being affectionate towards her, and starts to have an attitude towards her and her lack of physical labor. Logan tells her, “You done been spoilt rotten” (26). He wants Janie to help him with wood because she has not done any kind of manual labor. She does labor inside the house because as a woman in that era, she is taught that her “place” is to be a homemaker. One morning, when Logan orders Janie to hurry up to help him, Janie replies “You don’t need mah help out dere, Logan. Youse in yo’ place and Ah’m in mine” (31). Logan does not appreciate Janie’s attitude and assumption that he knows about where someone “belongs” and rebuffs her ideas, saying that she has no particular place. Logan’s harsh attitude towards Janie makes her understand that being married will not necessarily assume a loving relationship.
ReplyDeleteIn Their Eyes Were Watching God, Janie takes a carefree, loving approach towards her marriages with men. Janie tries to do this style of relationship with Joe because first he presents himself to her as someone who wants to effect change in an African-American community. However, Joe uses his previously-earned money to effect change in the town. Soon after earning popularity and becoming the “mayor”, he gains power over the lives of the people in the town, including his own wife. In one conversation, when Janie cannot find a letter, Joe automatically assumes that because Janie did not do as he asked the letter went missing: “Ah done told you time and time again tuh stick all dem papers on dat nail! All you got tuh do is mind me. How come you can’t do lak Ah tell you” (71)? In this and many other scenarios, Joe does not bother to ask Janie politely to do something but takes control and orders her to do it. When Janie does a specific action incorrectly or something happens out of misfortune, she is immediately blamed by Joe for not following orders. Joe strongly believes that all women are plainly stupid people. Janie protests, “Ah knows uh few things, and womenfolks thinks sometimes too” (71)! Joe responds, “Aw naw they don’t. They just think they’s thinkin’…You see ten things and don’t understand one” (71). In this case Joe not only insults women in general, but directly offends Janie, not caring about how his words affect her. Joe’s choice of language greatly disturbs Janie, and no matter how much she tries to fight it, Joe will not care and continue to force his opinions into her.
ReplyDeleteI recently finished the book a couple of days ago. Although I didn't think it was a great book I found Janie absorbing and an interesting protagonist. She has a sharp tongue, is quick witted, and entertaining. Janie marries three times throughout the story and each one is a very different experience with the three different men. The first time is with Logan, whom she was arranged to be married to and doesn’t love her at all. He is a brief character and isn’t much of one either. He requires Janie to do all the womanly work around the house and Janie is sick of being in a bad relationship. Then she meets Joe, whom spins her stories of being rich, never having to work again, all she has to do is run away with him and get married. And so she does, but Joe turns out to be what I think as a clone of Logan, or worse. After being named mayor of a small town, power goes to his head and he begins treating the towns people like scum, including his wife. He makes rude comments about her looks, and the way she runs the store. He refuses to let her socialize, and is so possessive of her he won’t let her wear her hair down, afraid that another man will try and take her. Joe goes too far and begins insulting her looks and then her age saying “What’s the matter wid you, nohow? You ain’t no young girl to be getting’ all insulted ‘bout yo’ looks. You ain’t no young courtin’ gal. You’se uh ole woman, nearly forty.”(79)“Yeah, Ah’m nearly forty and you’se already fifty. How come you can’t talk about dat sometimes instead of always pointing out me?”(79) is Janie’s answer. Her talk is responded with laughter from the town and a slap to her face from her husband. She finally gets back at Joe while he’s on his deathbed. “You ain’t try tuh pacify nobody but yo’self. Too busy listening tuh yo own big voice.”(87), but even on his deathbed he won’t admit his faults. Soon after she meets Tea Cake. Tea Cake is the man I approve most of in this book. He is the sweetest and kindest of the men. Even though Janie was about fifteen years older than Tea Cake, they were lovely together. At first the age difference was startling to me but eventually it was barely noticed because of their good chemistry. But this is not to say he isn’t derogatory towards women. One scene inparticular made me lose respect for him. “Being able to whip her reassured him in possession. No brutal beating at all. He just slapped her around a bit to show he was boss.”(147) So yes there was a line between the genders, it was a very different setting. It wasn’t unexpected because of the time period but it was still interesting to see the way women were treated. Although I found it slightly disgusting.
ReplyDeleteHi everyone, it’s Kira. I’m going to talk about gender relations in the novel, both how the author relates each gender, and how each gender relates to one another. This is extremely prominent, and the first two paragraphs of the novel are relating the two genders. On page one, Hurston writes,
ReplyDelete“Ships at a distance have every man’s wish on board. For some they come in with the tide. For others they sail forever on the horizon, never out of sight, never landing until the Watcher turns his eyes away in resignation, his dreams mocked to death by Time. That is the life of men. Now, women forget all those things they don’t want to remember, and remember everything they don’t want to forget. The dream is the truth. They act and do things accordingly”.
These passages are very important to keep in mind for two reasons; first, it relates both genders and sets the tone for the characters of the story, and second, it gives an idea of Janie and her character, before you even meet her.
The first part of the passage talks about men, and seems to highlight the differences between Janie’s first two husbands. Her first husband, Logan, doesn’t have much in life, and Janie is one of the better things to happen to him. However, he ends up treating her badly and driving her away. He represents the dreams that come in with the tide. Since there isn’t much mention of Logan after Janie leaves, we can’t know what happens to him. The future of his dreams remains a mystery, and if we never find out if they do “come in with the tide”. The second part of this passage is represented by Janie’s second husband, Joe. He’s representative of the second part of the passage because unlike accepting a bleak existence like Logan, Joe goes out to the new town, gets the woman he wants, becomes mayor, and does what it takes to get what he wants. Though he does get what he wants, he does take his time beforehand. This is represented by the line “His dreams mocked to death by time”.
The second passage, or part of the passage, is about women. Janie is one of the only women examined closely in the novel so far, (pg. 60~), and this part of the passage is very alike to her. Like Janie, the passage says that women “act and do things accordingly”. This is illustrated when Janie marries Logan to please Nanny, but runs away with Joe when she realizes that she isn’t living a happy life. This is an example of acting, then doing things accordingly.
In addition to this passage, there are multiple others illustrating the relations of men and women by the author. It’s interesting to see men and women through Hurston’s eyes, and then see how they treat each other in the novel. More specifically how men mistreat women in the novel, but the author still favors both equally. I think it will be interesting to see how Hurston’s opinions change throughout the rest of the novel.
Maria, here, with a short entry.
ReplyDeleteThe very first passage, which has been mentioned several times in this section of the blog, has also struck me as a very important.
Hurston acquaints the lives of men as being objective of things they are unable to control, their dreams being located on "ships at a distance." Women's lives, however, are structured differently. "The dream is the truth," implying that they take control of their lives based on their emotions. They're objective things that they are able to control, unlike men.
There are what have struck me as Hurston's opening statements on gender. I'm not sure I agree with these opinions, but they set the tone for the way the story portrays gender.
A recurring argument that I have noticed throughout the posts so far focuses on the idea that Janie’s first husband, Logan Killicks, mistreated her. Although the tone of the section where Janie is living with him sounds very on edge and accusatory, I would disagree with the idea that Logan ever actually did anything worse than say a few harsh words to Janie, at least as far as I have read (around page 60). On the contrary, he alone of her three men does not beat her, he offers her a safe and secure home, and in return asks, in a way that seems reasonable enough to me, that they share the work in a semi-equal fashion rather than being caught up in gender roles, with the woman in the house and the man in the field. Janie, who is so caught up in these roles, has no appreciation of what he is offering when he says “You ain’t got no particular place” (31) in conjecture with her insisting that she belonged solely in the house. This suggestion of working more equally, although on the one hand portraying Logan as being overly demanding in that he is trying to make his wife do something she does not wish to do, shows Logan to be open minded to the idea that women can do just as much as men, an opinion that does not seem to crop up anywhere else in this book so far. In terms of the relationship between Logan and Janie, although Janie was definitely unhappy, I think that he got a lot worse of a bargain, by marrying somebody who would never love him, apparently because of how he looked.
ReplyDeleteIn response to what Ellen said, I think that Janie faces her own struggle in the midst of their marriage because she tries to force herself to love someone in order to achieve what she thinks is happiness based on the ideals of her grandmother. When Janie says that she wants to leave Logan, he does not blame it on his controlling demeanor, but by saying Janie is spoiled. However, I find it cowardly that she ran away from Logan to find love with another man, as opposed to trying to work out her problems with her husband. I can see how Logan would see her as being somewhat unappreciative and I think that Janie should have tried to forget about her perfect idea of marriage and what she was told by her grandmother in order to realize the flaws that came within their relationship. I think that Janie’s decision to leave him is not based on her having to fulfill certain gender roles (although she has a fixed idea on how men and women should act), but on what she thinks it takes to be happy. She leaves Logan not for Jody, but she leaves to find a perfect marriage.
ReplyDeleteBrian, I agree with what you say in that I definitely believe that Janie left Logan to find her dream man. What I was trying to emphasize in my first post though was that I don't think that Logan did anything unpardonably wrong during their marriage, that Janie did give up to easily or even that she didn't try at all in getting along with her husband, that she was very close-minded in her dealings with him and that he had some very liberal ideas that she ignored.
ReplyDeleteHey it’s Abby. I hope everyone’s having a good summer. I have not read very much of the book yet but something that stood out to me is that Zora Neal Hurston writes about oppression in the black community, instead of showing whites oppressing blacks. Most of this is gender related but some is related to class and age. On page two Janie is walking back to her house dressed in overalls and her neighbors see her and start criticizing her:
ReplyDeleteWhat she doin coming back here in dem overhalls? Can’t she find no dress to put on?-Where that blue satin dress she left here in?-Where all dat money her husband took and died and left her?-What dat ole forty year ole ‘oman doin’ wid her hair swingin’ down her back lak some young gal?-Where she left dat young lad of a boy she went off here wid?-Thought she was going to marry?-Where he left her?-What he done wid all her money?-Betcha he off wid some gal so young she ain’t even got no hairs-why don’t she stay in her class?(2.)
In this quote Janie’s neighbors are criticizing her current attire and her love life because they think she’s acting out of her age, class, and gender. They are annoyed that she is not dressed like a woman of her class and that she’s dating someone a few years younger than her. Later in a fight between Logan and Janie, Logan says “You ain’t got no particular place. It’s wherever Ah need yuh. Git uh move on yuh, and dat quick” (31). Logan thinks woman are his slaves. He treats Janie as though she were only alive to serve him. He oppresses Janie because of her gender. Janie is angry she is oppressed by Logan so she leaves him for Joe. It seems to me the author is trying to show that black people are not only oppressed by whites but they are oppressed by each other.
While I haven't read very much of the book yet, I - like many others - was initially struck by the writing style of the novel. Hurston's comparisons were what caught my attention the most. There is a clear example of the juxtaposition of men and women in the first two paragraphs. The "life of men" is one of nostalgia and longing. Hurston writes:
ReplyDeleteThey sail forever on the horizon, never out of sight, never landing until the Watcher turns his eyes away in resignation, his dreams mocked to death by Time. That is the life of men . . . Women forget all those things they don't want to remember, and remember everything they don't want to forget. The dream is the ruth. Then they act and do things accordingly (1).
The comparison makes life sound like two entirely different experiences. For men, life is something that cannot be controlled, and the best memories are forever unattainable. Women, on the other hand, are depicted as having a full understanding of how to balance all that they experience.
I enjoyed the switching of traditional gender roles - here, the men are portrayed as helpless, while the women are strong. However, this description also makes the women seem rather cold and apathetic. The comparison gives the men a reckless, emotional mien, while the women seem almost robotic. I look forward to seeing how this theme is developed over the course of the novel.
I find Maddy's analysis of that quote interesting, because while in terms of the actions of the different genders (emotional as compared to robotic) it fits, in my opinion at least, very well throughout the book, but, contrary to what she hopes, the men still manage to hold the power despite their thoughtlessness.
ReplyDeleteI haven’t quite made if halfway into the book thus far, but I’m noticing how much deeper the sexism is in Janie’s second husband, Joe, than in her first husband, Logan. While Logan definitely seemed to want to control Janie, he never went out of his way to make himself seem superior to her or make her feel dehumanized. Joe, however, feels the need to humiliate Janie in public and in private by constantly insulting her intelligence and frequently beating her. He tries to convince her that women are among the same range of intelligence as animals and that they are incapable of any kind of complex thought:
ReplyDelete“’Somebody got to to think for women and chillun and chickens and cows. I god, they sho don’t think none theirselves. … They just think they’s thinking.’” (71)
Joe also feels a need for Janie’s complete submission to his will, making her eventually become numb to her surroundings. The life is sucked out of her, and she becomes solely capable of doing as he says.
“The years took all the fight out of Janie’s face. For a while she thought it was gone from her soul. … Mostly she lived between her hat and her heels, with her emotional disturbances like shade patterns in the woods--come and gone with the sun.” (76)
While Logan did attempt to keep Janie under his thumb, he didn’t break down her entire sense of self the way Joe did. Joe has no respect for women whatsover, and feels the need to make her feel less than human.
Joe's treatment of Janie is much worse then Logan's, because while Logan wanted her to obey him, Joe wanted to own her. He broke her down, and tried to control every aspect of her, body and mind. Joe likes control of everything around him, but Janie in particular he tried to own. I think that he does not truly believe that she is incapable of complex though, rather he thinks that if he doesn't make her believe that then she will leave him.
ReplyDeleteJoe seems to me to be very worried that she will leave him for another man, as she left Logan. Because he thinks that she will leave him, he breaks her down so completely that she can't. Joe Starks needs to be very clear that he is in control, so he tries to control everything about her.
Hi, I’m Laura and I will be attending Maybeck next year as a senior. Janie encounters dissatisfaction with both of her husbands because they expect her to work for them. When Joe Starks asks her to run away with him she is persuaded because of the leisure he offers her. He tells her “You ain’t got no mo’ business with a plow than a hog is with a holiday… A pretty doll-baby lak you is made to sit on de front porch and rock and fan yo’self and eat p’taters that other folks plant just special for you.” (29) However, soon after business consumes Starks and he has Janie work in the town store even though she doesn’t want to. He has her wear a head rag to cover up her hair because he doesn’t want other men to notice the beauty of her hair. The head rag is a symbol of Stark’s masculine control over her and when he dies Janie ceremoniously burns the rags.
ReplyDeleteThe society that Janie lives in with Starks is very patriarchal. Women are seldom mentioned and when they are it is to show how helpless they are or that they are goggled at for their beauty. Examples of this are of Daisy (68) and Mrs. Robbins. Mrs. Robins claims that her husband isn’t feeding her and that she is hungry and ends up disgracing Starks for not giving her enough meat. She is looked at in a negative light by the community and Coker says “Ah could break her if she wuz mine. Ah’d break her or kill her. Makin’ uh fool outa me in front of everybody.” (75)
Janie desperately wishes to be part of the community she lives in but Starks won’t allow it. Whenever he sees her mingling or chatting with others he orders her to do something for him or to get back to work. He won’t let her chat on the porch with the others or go along with him for something as special as burying the mule. When Starks is elected as mayor, Janie is asked to say a few words but Starks declines for her, saying “Thank yuh for all yo’ compliments, but mah wife don’t know nothin’ ‘bout no speech-makin’. Ah never married her for nothin’ lak dat. She’s uh woman and her place is in the home”. He doesn’t give her a chance to speak because he doesn’t want for her to be given any attention.
When Janie makes a mistake, the response she is given is augmented because she is a woman. When Janie messes up on cutting Mixon’s tobacco, he wags it up in the air and says “Uh woman and a knife—no kind of uh knife, don’t belong tuhgether.” (78) Later on, after Janie humiliates Starks in the store, she thinks to herself “Why must Joe be so mad with her for making him look small when he did it to her all the time?” (80)
In response to what Ami said, I’m not sure I agree that Hurston portrays women in a better light then men. Hurston writes that, “ships at a distance have every man’s wishes on board. For some they come in with the tide. For others they sail forever on the horizon, never out of sight, never landing until the Watcher turns his eyes away in resignation” (1). Several people have interpreted Hurston’s description of a man’s life to show that for men dreams are unattainable desires. However, when Hurston says that the “ships”, the men’s dreams in other words, “come in with the tide she tells that a man’s aspirations do indeed come to fruition on occasion. The author’s main point here is not whether a man can achieve his dreams, but that he has no control over whether or not he makes his dreams a reality, as he must rely on his symbolic sea to bring his dreams “in with the tide”.
ReplyDeleteOthers have also voiced the opinion that Hurston portrays women as having a more acute ability to prioritize and keep a kind of balance to their lives. In a way I agree, because Hurston does imply that women hold a higher amount of control over their lives than men when she says that, “women forget all those things they don’t want to remember, and remember everything they don’t want to forget” (1). But the way I see it, even if these women are exercising more control over their lives, at the same time they show a deep kind of denial by forgetting the memories that are not as favorable for them. Hurston writes, “The dream is the truth. They act and do things accordingly” (1). Although women try to make their dream a reality, thus initiating more control than the men, at the same time these dream are formed based on their ignoring the troubles of the past, and I fail to see how that could be purely beneficial to them.
All in all this passage doesn’t make purely positive or negative assumptions about either gender, instead focusing on discussing the vices and virtues of both.
Something I noticed is that although Janie is clearly mistreated in her first two marriages, she sort changes her mind as to what she wants regarding gender roles. I think this has to do with almost wanting to rebel against what her husband wants her to and/or is making her do. In her first marriage her husband feels she needs to help him with what, throughout the book, is considered “man’s work”. Because he is pushing for her to do this, she refuses, saying, “You don’t need mah help out dere, Logan. Youse in yo’ place and Ah’m in mine.” Contrastingly, when she’s married to Joe, who is extremely demeaning and sexist towards her, Janie longs for respect and the ability to do simple things that Joe wont allow her to do, like participate in jokes and play games and what not. Even the town wants her to give a speech when they first move there, to which Joe says, “Thank you fuh yo’ compliments, but mah wife don’t know nothin’ ‘bout no speech-makin’. Ah never married her for nothin’ lak dat. She’s uh woman and her place is in de home.” I think basically what her desires come down to are freedom, which she doesn’t really receive until Joe dies. I think part of it is about not having to be confined into gender roles, but mostly, her actions and desires are based on wanting to be able to make her own decisions, and not feel, like Natalie mentioned, owned and controled.
ReplyDelete“Ships at a distance have every man’s wish on board. For some they come in with the tide. For others they sail forever on the horizon, never out of sight, never landing until the Watcher turns his eyes away in resignation, his dreams mocked to death by Time. That is the life of men.”
ReplyDelete“Now, women forget all those things they don’t want to remember, and remember everything they don’t want to forget. The dream is the truth. Then they act and do things accordingly.”
Those were the first two paragraphs on the first page of this novel (Page 1). These two paragraphs are talking about the dreams of men and women. And how they differ from one another. Some mens dreams come in very quickly, and they are realized sooner than others. For women they do not wait, and watch for their ship to sail in. They believe that “The dream is the truth.”
These paragraphs are a good examples of the gender differences in this novel. In the beginning of this novel I portrayed Janie’s character as a women who let the men she was with treat her any way. Throughout the book I noticed a fair amount of sexist parts. Parts where her husbands told her not to talk, and parts where they made her seem like she belonged in the kitchen. Instead of loving Janie, they made her feel like she belonged to them, and that she was their property.
As the story progressed she developed a hard shell, and began to not put up with the way Logan, and Joe treated her. There are a few parts in this novel where Joe hits her, and she doesn’t say a word. She just walks away. I actually believe that with Janie not saying anything or reacting to those events, she is saying a lot.
Hi again,
ReplyDeleteSo far in the book there have been a few notable passages on gender roles. The two that are the most prominent in my mind are 1) Various passages in the first chapter, and 2) Her argument with her first partner. In the first chapter alone, there are more references to differences in genders than there are in the rest of the book that I have read so far.
"Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board" (1). This first passage of the book makes us wonder whether "man's" means mankind, or males. I wondered about this for a while actually, because if it was only restricted to males, females would not have their wishes granted, or you could even go so far as to say that they are perceived as not having wishes at all. Or perhaps she means that only men have a lust for travel and the sea.
"The men noticed her firm buttocks like she had grape fruits in her hip pockets; the great rope of black hair swinging to her waist and unraveling in the wind like a plume..... The women took the faded shirt and muddy overalls and laid them away for remembrance. It was a weapon against her strength and if it turned out of no significance, still it was a hope that she might fall to their level some day." (2) This passage shows the differences in the way she imagines men's and women's minds work. The men lust over the woman while she passes, while the women look at all of the flaws and all of the things that they could use against her in the future.
Thurston seems to feel that men and women are very different from one another, but that they can be both complimentary and antagonistic. She sees romantic relationship as an ideal natural state, probably partly because she feels like the differences make each gender incomplete until they are in relationship with the other one
-Post #2-Up to chapter 13-
ReplyDeleteIn the novel the way the world is viewed changes dramatically between males and females. When Sparks was still alive and married to Janie he was always the one who went out to social outings and got to talk to people while his wife Janie stayed in the shop and worked all day. When Sparks goes to leave for the donkey's funeral Janie wants to go too: "'How come Ah can't go long wid you tud de draggin'-out?' Joe was struck speachless for a minute. 'Why, Janie! You wouldn't be seen at uh draggin'-out, wouldja? Wid any and everybody in uh passle pushin' and shovin' wid they no-manners selves? Naw, naw!' 'You would be dere wid me, wouldn't yuh?' ''Dat's right, but Ah'm uh man even if Ah is de Mayor. But de mayor's wife is somethin' different again'" (60). Sparks shows that only men can go out to social outings where they are seen in public because it would be un-lady-like for a women let alone the mayor's wife to go to the donkey's funeral. This falls under how the world is viewed by Sparks and how Janie is affected by it.
Many of the commenters are bringing up great points on how Joe Starks is worse than Logan as a husband. I personally think that although what everyones saying is correct, was Joe actually worse than Logan? There must have been something about Joe that was better than Logan if Janie made the rash decision to run away with him and get married. Or maybe it's just that Janie wanted so badly to get away from Logan she left with Joe. Either way everyones bringing up great discussions and I'm enjoying reading all of them as it gives me a different perspective of the book. Especially the comments here about Joe being sexist and Logan not. Joe was vey sexist and possessive but I'd always thought wasn't Logan as well? Re-reading the passages with him in it I have to say that though he was often rude at times and a pig, he didn't make derogatory statements towards women.
ReplyDeleteHey everyone, this is Alicia. I’m still fairly early in the book, and have only met Logan and Joe of Janie’s husbands, but Hurston’s views on gender roles and genders are already very clear. She makes two different but not quite opposing points, one concerning individuality and independence from assigned gender roles and the other the necessary difference between genders, both in nature and in nurture.
ReplyDeleteIt is clear from the beginning of the novel that Janie stands out from the rest of the women of the time, but the concept of individuality is also shown in her relationships with men and the men themselves. Logan, although he considers himself superior to Janie and therefore in charge, has unconventional views of what women can and should do. He declares, “If Ah kin haul de wood heah and chop it fuh yuh, look lak you oughta be able tuh tote it inside” (26). He shows sexism in other points of the novel, for instance in referring to a mule as “all gentled up so even uh woman kin handle ‘im” (27). He has a demeaning view of women and of Janie, but he thinks they have responsibility and a place outside of the home, which shows uniqueness in his character.
Joe is even more sexist than Logan, which shows from his initial arrival in the plot, but in an entirely unique way. He immediately reduces her to her looks alone and disregards her capabilities. He tells her, “You behind a blow! You ain’t got no mo’ business wid uh plow than uh hog is got wid uh holiday! You ain’t got no business cuttin’ up no seed p’taters neither. A pretty doll-baby lak you is made to sit on de front porch and rock and fan yo’self and eat p’taters dat other folks plant just special for you” (29). Although this statement can at first appear to be kind-hearted flattery, it shows how strictly sexist he is. Throughout their union, he treats her as a useless pretty object, incapable of much and easily stolen by customers of his store. In the quote, he compliments her on her looks, and, as we later find out, falls in love with her solely based on them. When at first one could conceivably convey this comment as sympathy, telling her she deserves better than labor, it immediately becomes apparent that he really means that she should not be allowed to do any real work, which is constricting and offensive to Janie’s character. This brand of sexism fits in with the time, as does Logan’s, in a different way. They both contribute to society’s affect on Janie’s individuality, and these two brands of sexism are in themselves unique and individualistic, showing that, although gender roles were supported, individuals are never fully defined by them.
In addition to statements about individuality, Hurston makes statements about the differences in the lives and mentalities of men and women. She does not specify whether these differences are from inherent nature or societal influence. One particular example, although it’s been mentioned before on this blog, is after Janie realizes that she will not love Logan simply because she married him. Hurston writes, “Janie’s first dream was dead, so she became a woman” (25). There are two possible interpretations of this quote. The first is that women, rather than men, let go of the dreams that they know are impossible, and choose to recognize reality and move on. The second is that society had forcefully molded that role for women, particularly colored women. They were slaves of the masters and subservient to the slaves, their men. Even after the slaves were freed, before Janie’s birth, their social standing was the lowest. Most wishes they had were quickly killed or taken away, and they had to continue to live without complaint, at least not to those above them. Janie questions this throughout the novel, and the strict constraint of society’s sexism is what drives her to defy it, and to be an individual. However, she still identifies with the previously quoted statement of “becoming a woman,” which shows that Janie is a woman, but she does not play society’s role of a woman.
Lehna Cohen
ReplyDelete9th Grade English
One of the special things about this book is that Hurston takes the role of a stereotypical African American woman and turns it upside down. Janie does not represent a woman of weakness, serving her only purpose of being a pretty sight while cleaning the kitchen or baring the children. She is a powerful woman with feelings and dreams. Instead of her husbands dominating her they are her pedestals. Hurston creates this woman to display a message. All women have the potential to fulfill their dreams, whether Anglo Saxon, African American, or any race for that matter. I applaud her for not only creating this book but for her beliefs. Women and men are alike in many ways. We share the same potential and deserve the same respect.
Elena,
ReplyDeleteI think you brought up a great point. Since there is not as much dialogue between Jainie and Logan as with Jainie and Joe it is hard to compare the two as husbands. I agree with you that we do not really know how sexist Logan might be and I wonder if he too is demanding about how Jainie should be as a wife. To me it seems that Logan allowed Jainie to speak her mind and that they must have been somewhat equal in their relationship as Jainie is very comfortable to tell him how she feels. Maybe it is because of how soon Jainie and Joe rushed into their relationship that she is not able to see the demanding and condescending part of Joe that she is later so unhappy with.
Despite their intricacies and differences, Logan and Joe are fairly similar. The two should both be looked on as “compound figures” in their relationship with Janie. The text depicts both Logan and Joe in two distinct “phases”. The first is the “courting phase” in which both men try to win the love of Janie. The second phase is, for lack of a better name, the “marriage phase” in which both men have succeeded in “winning” Janie and marrying her. The two men are similar in their phases. Both Logan and Joe flatter Janie and show themselves of for her in the first phase. Once they have won her, though they still love her, their affection becomes less apparent. The two men, as admirably pointed out in previous entries, have very different personalities. Logan is “steady and dependable”, He works with what he has and though he loves Janie she finds him unattractive and wants more. Compared to Logan’s humbleness, Joe is exciting with his big city attitude, education, and big dreams. However, beyond that, there really isn’t much of difference in who’s better than the other. After all, in terms of making Janie happy, neither quite succeeded. They both have their intricate differences, but both make Janie unhappy by not allowing her to be free. With Logan she, “began to stand around the gate and expect things”(25). She wasn’t happy and she wanted more from the world, not a marriage with an ugly farmer much older than her. With Joe, she, “got nothing from Jody except what money could buy, and she was giving away what she didn’t value”(76). She is happy in neither relationship, so despite how different the two men are from each other, as far as Janie is concerned, they’re both the same man. The wrong one.
ReplyDeleteOne thing that I have noticed throughout the novel, is that Janie is always found to be doing the stereotypical tasks that women are supposed to be doing. For example, after Joe Starks's mule dies, she wished to participate in the funeral because she feels obligated to be there. However, Joe thinks that, as woman, Janie may not be mentally prepared for it. So he asks her to run the town store instead. Upon this, Janie retaliates verbally and asks him why she has to and why she cannot go. Joe responds with this:
ReplyDeleteDat's right, but Ah'm uh man even if Ah is de Mayor. But de Mayor's wife is somethin' different again. Anyhow they's a liable tuh need me tuh say uh few words over de carcass, dis bein' a special case. But you ain't going off in all dat mess uh commonness. Ah'm suprised at yuh fuh askin (60).
Because of the time period and context of the quote, it makes sense for Starks to want to protect Janie against seeing a dead body, even if it is an animal. But, I find it to be down right sexist. Even though this may have been appropriate in the time period of the novel, Joe exhibits the characteristics of power hungry to me. I think this quote shows that although Joe loves Janie very much, he shelters her much to often.
Another element I think this quote connects with is the fact that Janie does not know much of the community. If Janie were to go out to town events and branch herself out, she may not feel as lonely. One thing that I wonder about is if all the other women in the town may be as lonely as she is?
In Their Eyes Were Watching God, the narrator describes men and women very differently. According to the narrator, women act like “the dream is the truth” (1). I take this to mean that for women, life is what they make it. They live life without looking back, only living in the present, with no regrets. Men, however, go through life hoping things will happen the way they want, and not doing anything about it. In relationships, men are the ones in control, and women just run around the house trying to please their husbands. Janie does not fit this mold. She thinks and acts for herself, and resents being oppressed by anyone. She is an independent spirit, and, in relationships, wants to be equal to the man. In her first two marriages, she doesn’t feel equal at all, but she finally meets Tea Cake, who lets her do what she wants (mostly), and even takes her to baseball games, hunting, and all sorts of things that Joe didn’t let her do.
ReplyDeleteElena, in response to your point about there having to be "something about Joe that was better than Logan if Janie made the rash decision to run away with him," as you put it: I'm not going to pass judgment about whether Joe or Logan was the better husband and companion to Janie, but Janie's initial motivation for running off with Joe is clear from the moment we meet him. He's sharp-dressed, smooth-talking and full of flattery and charm. Janie is young and impressionable, and stopped receiving such treatment from Logan soon after they were married. Joe says, "'A pretty doll-baby lak you is made to sit on de front porch and rock and fan yo'self and eat p'taters dat other folks plant just special for you' (29)". He's young and charismatic and makes Janie feel wanted; those are three things that Logan will never be capable of doing or being. I don't see it that "Janie wanted so badly to get away from Logan she left with Joe." She probably wouldn't have left Logan if Joe hadn't come along. Rather than Joe being a salvation she's been hoping and praying for, he comes along serendipitously and presents a more attractive alternative to the way Janie would go through life with Logan.
ReplyDelete(this is a makeup post for the first post date, sorry I was being lazy like an idiot X__X)
ReplyDeleteWhats up guys, its Devon,
PERCEPTIONS OF THE IDEA OF MARRIAGE:
I think gender roles of marriage in this book are extremely subjective based on the character and their set of personal beliefs. Some characters claim to have one belief set and act in a totally different towards their spouses.
Logan Killicks is very respectful towards Janie in the beginning of their marriage, Janie even makes a point of pointing out how he doesn't make her do much but cook a meal or two and how respectful he is. However as time passes he becomes more demanding of her and ultimately it seems like he wanted more of a beast of burden than a wife to love and cherish, of which he does neither. Ultimately this ends their marriage and she goes and runs off with Jodie Starks. Jodie treats her like a queen and puts her on a pedestal for people to look at. sadly this pedestal resides in two places: The town store where she is to stay all day, and their house. Jodie believes that women are trophies to show off and should not have a say in things because they have no authority. Janie doesn't exactly like this, and (***SPOILER ALERT) after Jodies death(SPOILER ALERT***) she happily gets married to Teacake. Teacake is a young man with spunk that captures Janie's heart from the start. Teacake loves her and treats her right, more importantly Teacake treats Janie just the way she likes to be treated and believes that being completely honest is the way to go. I think this is the only person that Janie really falls in love with. Teacake feels that the woman is equal and a marriage is a partnership. And in the end (***SPOILER ALERT)Teacake ends up losing his life to protect hers(sadly) But also tries to take hers(I find this hilarious), but it was really only because he was rabid and violent. (SPOILER ALERT***)
Every husband has an idea of what the woman should be in the marriage and that is kind of what makes this book, its the story of Janie's search for her idea of love(and the perfect husband)
One thing I'd like to point out is that Janie does not conform with the assumptions men have about women's attitudes. She is smart, resilient, and cherishes freedom. She looks out for her own needs rather than the wishes of the men she marries. That's not to say she doesn't look out for the needs of her husbands, but her first two marriages ended with her finally trying to find what she's looking for rather than satisfy the primarily sexist expectations of the men she was with.
ReplyDeleteGender poses a major role in Their Eyes Were Watching God; it practically drives the whole story. Gender differences and the assumptions based on gender are what make Janie leave Logan Killicks and what makes her unhappy with Joe and happy with Tea Cake. Logan thinks a woman should be like a servant: obedient, doing everything her husband tells her to. Janie does not conform to his idea of what a woman should be, and after his love for her fades, he berates her and grumbles openly about this, which makes her leave him for Joe. Joe Starks promises not to work her or force her to do anything like Logan did. She believes him and so they go to an all-black town, where Joe becomes mayor and kind of breaks his promise to her by making her work in the general store he built, saying it's for her own good as the mayor's wife and for her "image". His idea of woman is as an accessory or ornament; he almost treats her like a pet or child, and makes assumptions of what's good for her or what she wants. He gets kind of drunk in his own power and feels the need to correct her every little mistake, something she hates. He treats her as a higher being, something that should be idolized and kept under lockdown. He treats her like an object, partially because she is so beautiful. Once again, she does not conform to his ideals, but he is so chastising about it that her real personality retreats and she lives a shell of herself, in a way conforming to it eventually. The reason she really has a lasting relationship with Tea Cake, that perfect union she was searching for, is because he treats her as an equal, someone to be respected and not kept on a leash. No one is inferior to the other in his views on gender, and so Janie is happy to live on the muck with him and happy to work with him. That was kind of her idea of a perfect union all along.
ReplyDeleteI have read 15 chapters of this book so far and I am not surprised in the way in which gender roles are portrayed. During the time that this book takes place, women often had lower status than men and were expected to do housework and other mundane tasks. Janie often seems to ignore the way she is treated compared to men, but she still seems to want to have rights. One part of the book where this shows is on page 43, after Joe becomes the Mayor and Janie is given the opportunity to make a speech. Before she can say anything Joe starts talking and says that Janie would not be able to make a speech and that her place is at home doing housework. When Joe says this, she thinks about how she never has tried to do a speech but that she probably could. She then forgets about it and it doesn’t continue to bother her. I think that Janie should have said something at that moment and she probably would have felt proud of herself. Recently in the book Janie has been standing up for herself and is evolving as a character.
ReplyDeleteThe gender roles in Their Eyes Were Watching God for me were unsurprisingly depressing, and though that continues to be true as I re-read parts of the book, there is also the prominent theme of Janie trying to overcome the place she finds herself in as a black woman. Though oftentimes the choices she makes attempting to head in that direction backfire, she does try to stay true to her own spirit. The spirit she has of chasing after a dream, though it may not exist. While this is all well and good, uplifting and such, she does end up getting herself into situations that are worse then her previous ones, and she often seems blind to worrying signs. Though her first husband was not the ideal, and certainly not her choice, his wish for her to work alongside him was rather positive when compared to the opinion of the stranger she meets, Joe Starks. The opinion that she “is made to sit on de front porch and rock and … eat p’aters dat other folks plant special” (29) along with his description of her as a “doll-baby” makes it clear that the new man wants her as a possession rather than a wife. Though it’s a depressing set of options, Janie’s original husband Killicks probably would have been a better choice, though if she had chosen him there wouldn’t be much of a story left.
ReplyDeleteThis book deals with a lot of sexism such as: keeping woman indoors, in the kitchen, at home, doing the wash etc... But the reader also has to but this book in context. At the time sexism was a normal everyday thing and wasn't seen as wrong at all so what might seem outrageous to use is totally normal to the characters of the novel.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Jay,
ReplyDeleteI think that the main theme when it comes to gender in this book is partner vs. property. It's the difference in whether somebody views you as their equal, and as somebody they can have a relationship with, or whether they view you as being just another animal that they have to take care of and keep alive. It's either a pleasure or a burden. Viewing somebody as your property lets you treat them in ways you would never treat a partner.
I'd also like to explore the idea of things that are off limits, or forbidden. Forbidden fruit tastes the sweetest, as they say. The main character always wants things that she can't have, but of course, she gets them anyway. This is the most apparent in the amount of time that goes by before she switches lovers, and it is usually impulsive. Especially the first switch, from Killicks to Starks. She is married to someone who turns out to not be perfect (what a shock), so she runs away with a complete stranger. I know this may not be the right page to do it on, but I would like to talk more about Janie's impulses and how they affect her throughout the book. Why is she easily dissatisfied, what keeps her at a more superficial level, and doesn't allow her to go deep enough to have a longer attention span with someone?
Hi, everyone. There’s a scene in particular that I think speaks to the role of gender in Their Eyes Were Watching God, but it also kind of works with character relations as well. I’ve noticed that in Janie’s development of her identity, she begins to abandon the ideals of traditional femininity. But I think that this is achieved somewhat strangely in regards to her relationship with Tea Cake. Even though Tea Cake is somewhat “in charge” of the relationship because he is a man, Janie is exposed in a way to a masculine perspective. To me, what seemed like a significant point in their relationship is when Tea Cake goes out to gamble and Janie picks up dice for the first time. I feel like despite its significance to socioeconomic backgrounds, this act of touching something that is otherwise reserved for men shows a lack of fear and a curiosity into the life of the opposite sex. I think that their differences draw the two of them together, and their exposure to each others lives helps break down the gender barrier in some regard.
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with Daniel's point above. I have a very similar opinion of Janie's and Tea Cake's marriage but one thing that confused me completely was the scene where Tea Cake talks about beating Janie. During their second year in the Everglades, he and Sop-de-Bottom are working in the fields when Sop-de-Bottom says, "'Lawd! wouldn't Ah love tuh whip uh tender woman lak Janie! Ah bet she don't even holler. She jus' cries, eh Tea Cake?' 'Dat's right.... Ah didn't wants whup her last night, but ol' Mis' Turner done sent for her brother tuh bait Janie in and take her way from me. Ah didn't whup Janie 'cause SHE done nothin'. Ah beat her tuh show dem Turners who is boss'" (148). Having witnessed Janie's and Tea Cake's relationship from day one, I am confused and a little disturbed by this. Tea Cake never disregarded gender but he formed their relationship on a basis of mutual respect and an enjoyment of each other's company. All this does not seem in keeping with displaying dominance through spousal abuse. It seems to be an expression of insecurity, that he doubts Janie's love enough to beat her. I can't remember any other points where Tea Cake displayed this facet of his personality and while this bubble of violence does add a degree of reality to their marriage, I would never have thought Tea Cake would resort to such measures in order to make a point to people who wouldn't necessarily know the point was being made (does that make any sense at all?...). - He's beating his wife in total privacy in order to make a statement to other people.
ReplyDeleteIt seems like every time Janie starts being in love with a new man he treats her differently than her last partner. For example, Logan wants her to share the work equally. Joe wants her to stay in the female gender role (stay in the house and store and take care of things), and Tea Cake wants to play and have fun together (even if that means taking a woman out of her traditional gender role and bringing her to a baseball game or hunting).
ReplyDeleteI agree with Genevieve's opinion about Tea Cake. Hurston makes it clear that his abuse toward Janie is not because of her actions, but because hitting her would "relieve that awful fear inside of him" (147). However, I, somewhat felt that Tea Cake would have eventually abused Janie because his entrance in the novel is somewhat similar to that of Joe Starks (he enters Janie's life and she immediately takes an interest to him and everything seems to go in her favor for a few chapters). I don't know if gender plays a role in their abuse (at least, not as much as pure dominance does), but a man beating his wife becomes a repetitive concept in the book.
ReplyDeleteThis is the only question blog I will ever post. Why does the author make so little of Teacake beating Janie? Is it, as the story says, because he beats her only to "relieve that awful fear inside him"? Why doesn't the beating destroy their relationship? For her previous relationships, this behavior has pretty much heralded the end of the marriage. What do you guys think?
ReplyDeleteSo in response to Quinn I'm not sure what year this book was set in but Tea Cake beating Janie could have been acceptable at the time. And in her other relationships Janie doesn't love her husbands in the first place but she does love Tea Cake. Also at that time no one to teach Janie that about domestic violence because people weren't taught that using violence is wrong. It wasn't a big of an issue back then as it is today.
ReplyDeleteI both agree and disagree with Abby. On one hand, Janie’s love for Tea Cake overrides the one time he beat her, as well as it being common for husbands to mistreat their wives at the time. Tea Cake also never even threatened to beat her before and never did again, and he has treated her better than both of Janie’s previous husbands. I disagree with Abby in that I do think she is aware that domestic violence is bad, even though it wasn’t as big of a deal then. I think the fact that Tea Cake knows it’s wrong helps as well, and the fact that they are able to push through it and keep their relationship strong proves how much more solid her relationship is with Tea Cake. Having said that, I do think it was taken a bit to casually on Janie’s part, and Tea Cake wanting to ‘show who’s boss’ should not have been a valid excuse.
ReplyDeleteResponding to something Alexander posted only a week ago, he wrote something that confused me a bit. He wrote, “Janie often seems to ignore the way she is treated compared to men, but she still seems to want to have rights.” I tend to disagree with the statement that she ignores the way that she is treated. Janie conforms to what each of her husbands demand from her, whether it is obedience or being locked up in a high-class position. Most of the time in the store, Joe Starks forces Janie to work with an inhuman amount of efficiency. Only towards the end of each of her relationships does she truly push for more rights.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Aaron's post, I agree that Janie is quite aware of the inequality that she lives under, but I think that she obeys Logan and Joe because she feels that it is her duty as a wife to perform as her husband wishes her to. When she marries Logan, her grandmother tells her that she will learn to love him, and I don't think that idea goes away even after she leaves him. I think that she does what her first two husbands want her to do because she wants them to be happy with her to allow love to grow. When she meets Tea Cake, she realizes that obedience does not bring love, and the way he tells her that she can do a lot shows her even more how unequal her previous marriages were.
ReplyDeleteI actually kind of disagree with what Brandt said. I agree that Logan and Joe keep Janie controlled, and she allows this because she thinks it will help her to love them in time. However, (and I'm not sure if this has been brought up before so I'm sorry if I'm repeating someone else's entry) Tea Cake doesn't treat her entirely as an equal. He asks her to work with him in the fields, and he certainly respects her as a woman and as a person, but Janie is still very obedient towards Tea Cake. She doesn't work in the fields until he tells her to, and he basically decides where they live, and where they go during the storm, etc. Also, there is that scene where Tea Cake beats Janie. Although it was a different time period and things like that were more normal and accepted, I think the way Tea Cake and the other men discuss the beating is actually very disrespectful towards Janie. When the other men are commenting on how they'd like to beat Janie because it would leave marks on her light skin, Tea Cake seems to take pride in that. It's like he prides himself on having a wife light skinned enough to bruise easily. Also, one man comments that his wife would fight back or scream, while Janie was more docile and cried. Janie lets Tea Cake beat her and doesn't struggle. She obeys him even when it directly physically harms her. I'm not saying she doesn't love Tea Cake or that he doesn't love her. It's definitely the most functional relationship she has in the novel, and they really do love each other, but the relationship is still unequal, with Janie following and Tea Cake leading.
ReplyDeleteI wanted to bring up the difference in the way Janie is treated by men and women—sorry if this has already been talked about. In many instances in the novel, women view her negatively and judgmentally while men view her sexually and often derogatorily. I found that she is talked about by both genders, whether negatively or positively, however men and women do view her differently.
ReplyDeleteThis is well seen in a passage very early on: “The men noticed her firm buttock like she had grapefruits in her hip pockets; the great rope of black hair swinging to her waist and unraveling in the wind like a plume; then her pugnacious breasts trying to bore holes in her shirt…The women took the faded shirt and muddy overalls and laid them away for remembrance. It was a weapon against her strength and…it was a hope that she might fall to their level some day,” (2). These opinions of Janie last throughout the novel. She is constantly gossiped about, especially by the women, and flirted with by men, whether or not they know that she’s married. This is seen a lot when she first moves with Jody; a lot of men approach her and make passes at her despite knowing her to be married to Jody. Consequentially, she gains a reputation among the women, after which anything she does that could be even slightly misconstrued cause people to gossip about her.
I find it really interesting how this is very similar to society today. It is not uncommon for women to gossip about and dislike other women because they receive a lot of male attention. I think this novel really shows how timeless this sort of behavior is.
I agree with Brian’s statement on Tea Cake. Tea Cake may have been by far the best of Janie’s three relationships, but he wasn’t by any means perfect. Once Janie ran away with Tea Cake, I found myself disliking him more and more. Though their relationship is “stable” before Tea Cake died, if he had lived longer I believe that his wild nature and poor impulse control would certainly lead to a poor ending.
ReplyDeleteJanie’s first impression of women’s place in society comes from her knowledge of her mother’s experience with men. By the time she is a teenager she knows that she was the product of her mother’s rape. This makes her feel that women are not respected in the same way as men. Her grandmother who was a slave raised Janie and this heightens her sense of disempowerment. Her mother left so she does not have her as a role model.
ReplyDeleteWhen Janie is seventeen her grandmother tells her she has to marry Logan Killicks. Janie feels that she should have a choice but that was how it was for women during that time. Logan expects Janie to be subservient even though at the beginning of their marriage he promised to be more generous. When Janie does not follow his directions he threatens her with violence. The morning after Janie discusses leaving, Logan threatens her and says, “Ah’ll take holt uh dat ax and come in dere and kill yuh!”(31) Even though this makes Janie uncomfortable it was not abnormal in her society. Janie was unusual in her unwillingness to tolerate his abuse.
As the marriage progresses Janie expects to grow feelings for Logan, but instead she becomes more and more dissatisfied. She is so desperate to leave that she makes the quick decision to go with a man she barely knows. Joe Starks promises to treat her decently which is part of what draws her to him. As he gains power and clout in the new town she slowly realizes that while he is not as verbally abusive as Logan, he still does not fully respect her opinions and her potential to be am influential person in society. During a town meeting he says, “mah wife don’t know nothin’ ‘bout no speech-makin’. Ah never married her for nothin’ lak dat. She’s uh woman and her place is in de home.” (43)
Before Janie’s first marriage she was not as conscious of the different gender roles. But when she marries Logan it makes the differences between men and women seem more personal. When she leaves that marriage she thinks she can escape those issues and gain empowerment. Although she does gain some power and safety, she still lacks the ability to fully express herself.
I agree with Theo's statement about Tea Cake's nature. With Tea Cake's boasting about gambling, and Janie's unwillingness to do anything but stand back and watch, I think it could have developed into something far worse than just shooting dice with the guys. He seemed to be one of those types of people that would have jumped at any type of situation to make good money, no matter what it does to him or his wife. He one day just came home and told Janie they were moving, and while they made good money on the muck, they had to live in what can only be called a shack. While it turned out all right mostly, he did move them into hurricane territory, which was the thing that got them killed, and other "opportunities" might not have went so well. I think that Janie loved him, but her love made her ignore the danger that she was placing herself in by following Tea Cake blindly.
ReplyDeleteHello everyone, it’s Kira. I’m here to reply to Stacy’s first post here, about how the men in the book treat women like they’re incompetent and inferior. I agree with her point, and just wanted to add on, and discuss how this changes when Janie meets Tea Cake. (At least from what I’ve read). Janie spends with majority of her time with men being disrespected and made fun of. She is usually only paid attention to when someone needs something or she has made a mistake. She isn’t even allowed to play chess because she’s believed to not be smart enough for it. However, when Janie meets Tea Cake, she is treated as an equal, much to her surprise. So, even though women are usually treated poorly in the novel, Tea Cake is an example of a respectful male character in the novel.
ReplyDeleteTo agree with and add on further to Anna’s comment. Once Janie is left with out her second husband after his death, she encounters a period of extreme empowerment as a woman. She was not a wealthy widow who was not too old to remarry. This time after Joe’s death was a time of realization for Janie. She had many men come to her telling her the dangers of not having a husband, but Janie enjoyed her freedom. She could go anywhere or do anything she pleased. When she first started seeing Tea Cake, she continued to feel that sense of freedom, for he was like a young man, and the two of them went doing all sorts of things that Joe Starks would never have let Janie do. Of her three husbands, Tea Cake allowed Janie the most freedom, and that supports the fact the Tea Cake was also Janie’s first true love and best husband.
ReplyDeleteThis falls both under gender and character discussion, but I feel more so under the gender category.
ReplyDeleteOne of things I have really noticed about Tea Cake is that he treats Janie as an equal. Marriage as we all know, is a two way street no doubt about it. In Janie's first marriage to Logan, she was treated as a stereotypical housewife; only doing cooking, cleaning, and meaningless tasks in her opinion. Logan did however, have her best interest at heart. He always wanted her to take time to relax. Her second husband, Jody, did not seem to keep this in mind. Jody had her running the store; this could maybe have been a step up for her from sweeping the porch at Logan's. But Janie wanted to be more than a storekeeper. She wanted to participate in conversations and discussions occurring on her own front porch.
Because Jody was very closed minded, so it seemed to me, he did not feel that Janie had the privilege to participate due to the fact that it was a "manly activity." After their argument at the store Janie takes away his manhood.
"Naw, Ah ain't no young gal no mo' but den Ah ain't no old woman neither. Ah reckon Ah looks mah age too. But Ah'm uh woman every inch of me, and Ah know it. Dat's uh whole lot more'n you kin say. You big-bellies round here and put out a lot of brag, but 'tain't nothing' to it but yo' big voice. Humph! Talkin' 'bout me lookin' old! When you pull down yo' britches, you look lak de change uh life" (79).
This quote really shows how Janie longs to be treated equally even though she is a middle-aged woman. When Tea Cake comes along though, he teaches her to play checkers, to hunt, and to fish. He teaches her life skills that allow her to be independent while at the same time becoming close to him.
"Tea Cake and Janie go hunting. Tea Cake and Janie gone fishing. Tea Cake and Janie gone to Orlando to the movies. Tea Cake and Janie gone to a dance... Tea Cake and Janie playing checkers; playing coon-can; playing Florida flip on the store porch all afternoon as if nobody else was there. Day after day and week after week" (110).
This quote shows how Tea Cake has come to treat Janie as an equal. She does the things that Tea Cake does and sometimes visa versa. Because of this treatment, Janie learns to grow as a woman. Maybe all these experiences with Tea Cake, and later on the hurricane, all her to be the independent and strong willed woman she is.
I would agree with Hero, in saying that Tea Cake, for the most part, treats Janie as if the two are equals. In the highlights of their relationship, Hurston gives us several examples of how Janie and Tea Cake bond, such as fishing and hunting (as Hero wrote). However, one instance that occurs in the book exemplifies the inequalities of their marriage. When Tea Cake hits Janie as a way “to show he was boss” (147), the reader sees an insecurity be unleashed in the form of abuse toward Janie. In comparison with the other men in Janie’s life, Tea Cake is less controlling of her, but in my opinion, I think that the kind of relationship she shares with Tea Cake is also because she tries to act independent (regardless of whether or not she succeeds in doing so).
ReplyDeleteI would like to point out that Joe Starks meant to give Janie a privilege when he appointed her to run the store. His ideas of status and the needs and wants of Janie were completely wrong. Joe thought he had given Janie all she could have wanted, an expensive house, the privilege of running the store and the prestige and class of being the wife of the mayor. In keeping Janie separated from the town-folk, Joe meant to show Janie her class. In reality, the store was a prison to Janie, and what she wanted was freedom from it and the ability to be an equal to those around town. While Joe saw her position as higher in class than the town-folk, Janie saw herself as a slave to the people. But Joe’s intentions (at least in the beginning) were good. Of course I agree that Tea Cake was Janie’s most fair, fun and loving husband, and their relationship was the most spirited and genuine.
ReplyDeleteI think that Joe thought that he was giving Janie all she wanted, but he didn't understand that she was a person, not a status symbol for him. Other than that, of course, he was a perfect husband.
ReplyDeleteHi everyone this is Todd, an incoming freshman, and I thought that the characters in this book were very sexist towards one another. For instance, when Janie's grandmother was telling Janie a story about slavery, she said that the slave master passes on the work to the niggers and the niggers pass it on to the niggerwomen. However, the black women especially Janie are just putting up with whatever the men do to them. Another example would be when Tea Cake hit Janie for the first time and afterwards Sop-de-bottom told Tea Cake he was lucky to have a woman that just takes the beating. They need to fight back like Sop-de-bottom said his wife does.
ReplyDeleteAt least Tea Cake took hunting and fishing, activities thought to be strictly for men. I think all Tea Cake wanted was to have fun with his wife and didn't care what people thought.
-Todd b.
Brandt, I agree that Joe provided a lifestyle and money for a comfortable life. But other than that, he was basically a jailer. Janie wasn't allowed to go where she wanted or talk to whoever she wanted. At first Joe had good intentions, but as he grew older, he began to belittle Janie for his own comfort and to gain sympathy. I'd say he's pretty far from a perfect husband
ReplyDeleteContinuing with this trend,
ReplyDeleteI believe that Joe Starks was a good person but a bad husband. When he was alive, and with Janie, he expected too much and gave too little, but he was still a relatively successful person, and although he was not wealthy because he was black, he had many privileges and possessions that any other person in the town would have loved to have. Basically, he lived like a lower-class white man with a little bit more power. Even when Janie was still in the "honeymoon phase", where Joe Starks looked amazing in her eyes, he still did not have youthful energy like Tea Cake. I am not saying Tea Cake is any better, but he did have a more appealing energy than Joe Starks. Joe only appeared to be intimidating with his personality, but I believe it was truly his status, nothing more.
Todd, while I agree with you that everyone in this book seems sexist, I don't think that Tea Cake taking Janie hunting and fishing necessarily shows that he isn't sexist. The hunting maybe, because a gun is involved, but if you look at the people they spend time with it is much more common for men and women to work side by side doing the same thing all day long, and Janie used to go fishing with her friend Pheoby even before meeting Tea Cake.
ReplyDeleteI have rather conflicted feelings about Joe. While I want him to be a good guy, he just seems to self-centered and greedy to be a truly respectable person. He dazzles Janie with talk of big plans and adventure and then treats her with a big house and presents. I think Janie was just starstruck when she married Jody, after the excitement died down and she was left with a demanding, self important husband and a store to run, she realized that she had made a mistake. She was just to young to know better.
ReplyDeleteJoe is definitely sexist, he thinks of Janie as this trophy he won, so therefor, he owns. I think that Joe actually does love Janie, he just loves himself more. He pampers and imprisons her, breaking her willpower down so she cant be her own person. In the end he just wants to own and control her.
Hey. This is Mickey. I think that Joe has Narcissistic Personality Disorder, causing him to seem sexist when really he just acts that way towards everyone. I'm not saying that their is no sexism at all, rather that it comes out more than it would from someone else with the same level of sexism, but no disorder. Narcissistic Personality Disorder causes a person to only feel worthy if they are completely surrounded by people who love them. In essence, the way that they show their love for someone is by wanting that person's love.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Amhara on most parts, except that I don't think he wants to "own and control her" as you said, but that that is the only way he knows how to show his affection. Understanding this makes it a bit easier for me to tolerate him.
I agree with Mickey's point about Joe's possible disorder; a very good demonstration of his narcissism is on page 78, when Janie cuts a hilariously lopsided plug of tobacco and the men loafing in the store start laughing "good-natured[ly]." Joe doesn't seem to understand that no one really cares that the plug is misshapen and thinks their laughter is malicious and directed towards him (I'm thinking about why that would be; I guess because he considers Janie kind of his property, and thus a reflection/extension of himself). He flips the events to be negative and focused on him, when it wasn't remotely either of those things; he freaks out and starts shouting at Janie.
ReplyDeleteThe only part where I don't share your opinion is where you say that being controlling is "the only way he knows how to show his affection." I don't think the way he treats Janie is an expression of affection - I don't think he respects or trusts her; he is extremely paranoid and possessive. Due to his feelings of ownership, that "she was in the store for HIM to look at, not those others" (55), he makes her wear her hair up, a blatant attempt to symbolically smother her freedom as a woman.
I don't know if affection is the right word, but I do think that Joe does to a certain extent care about Janie. Why else would he feel so possessive?
ReplyDeleteGood point Ellen - my understanding of him is that because Janie is his wife and in society at that time the husband was supposed to be the dominant figure in the relationship, he interprets a lot of Janie's expressions of self-reliance and interactions with other men as threats to his dominance. He's also the leader of the town and is pretty responsible for raising it to the status it is at that point in the story, so I understand that he would feel like the image of his power is something worth protecting. I don't mean to sound like I think Joe's a calculating megalomaniac - I just don't always see his possessiveness as a manifestation of caring.
ReplyDeleteI would also agree with Ellen's statement. To be blunt, Joe is psychologically abusive of Janie. However both partners in the marriage rationalize this behavior because it was not uncommon in society at that time and location to degrade women or trivialize their contributions. What we see as Joe’s abuse was seen as proper behavior by many at the time, especially Joe. We must ask, does Joe think his behavior is inappropriate or cruel towards Janie? He often seems to think that his control over her is what is best for her. Although our outside perspective allows us to see the truth, those caught in abusive relationships often rationalize the behaviors of their partners (this applies to both the abuser and the abused). This pattern is further perpetuated in the novel due to society’s views on the "proper" dynamic of marriage and behavior of women at the time.
ReplyDeleteAlthough Joe definitely exhibits some narcissistic qualities, I think the heart of the matter lies in his insistence that he always be in control. His constant search for power, over the townspeople, Janie, and in essence his own life, is what leads to, as Olivia so aptly put it, his psychological abuse of Janie. In some ways he uses his power wisely, and his leadership works wonders for the community as a whole, but when it comes to Janie he abuses his power dreadfully.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Rose's idea also because I can see that Joe does nit really understand what his true power is over the towns people. He thinks obtaining power means using it to get whatever he wants, but that's not true. To be the head, the leader means someone who understands what his/her responsibility is to create a better environment for community.
ReplyDeleteHonestly his ideas are great, no hate on that but the way that he chooses to go about those tasks is wrong. Especially when it comes to Janie. No matter who he is to the town, he is still her husband and he needs to treat her like one. It's like he doesn't know when to use his so called power.
I can't really blame him much because it's not one of the things that he's did on purpose but it is a shame to have seen/ imagined him die the way he did.
A passage I found interesting was on page 31 and it was from part of a heated exchange between Logan and Janie: “Logan dropped his shovel and made two or three clumsy steps towards the house, then stopped abruptly. ‘Don’t you change too many words wid me dis mawnin’, Janie, do Ah’ll take and change ends wid yuh! Heah, Ah just as good as take you out de white folks’ kitchen and set you down on yo’ royal diasticutis and you take and low-rate me! Ah’ll take holt uh dat ax and come in dere and kill yuh!”. This part of a long passage is a piece of an argument that eventually leads to Janie leaving Logan because he wanted her to be the submissive obedient housewife that he thought she should be rather than she speak out and talk back to him. At the end of the long dispute she eventually leaves him and sets off to find another man to have in her life.
ReplyDeleteHey it's Hannah Miller! So I've noticed there has been a lot of discussion of Joe's need to have power over the townspeople and Janie. I actually attribute his need for control as simply one of his attributes. It is true, at least in the first 2 marriages, that it is the man's job to protect and care for his wife. But I think Logan don't do enough of it, and Joe does it so much, it hurts Janie. But I think his flaws aren't actually part of the gender discussion, and more of character discussion.
ReplyDeleteSo I've already mentioned one difference between men and women in the relationships in this book: that the man is the protector. Well, of course, Janie changes that. She is not exactly a feminist, but she stands up for herself because she was raised to do so. By her third marriage, she is caring for Tea Cake as much as he cares for her. She tends his wounds, she helps him at his job, she cares for him when he is sick. (see previous blog post)
"Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board. For some they come in with the tide. For others they sail forever on the horizon, never out of sight, never landing until the Watcher turns his eyes away in resignation, his dreams mocked to death by Time. That is the life of men.
Now, women forget all those things they dont want to remember, and remember everything they don't want to forget. The dream is the truth. Then they act and do things accordingly. (pg 1)
While the prose may be at times simplistic, and the page length very reasonable, this is a novel swirling with important themes. Sexism and ignorance rule Janie's first two marriages, while her life with Teacake is relatively untroubled, or is it? To me, even the situations under which she first interacts with Teacake speaks of poor attitudes towards women. The townspeople are inflamed by the relationship because they think women should not have the right to choose their own partners based on how much they like them, instead of how much they can provide towards a woman. While Teacake himself does have many assumptions about what women are capable of or what they would like to do, he is fairly easy going about surrendering these assumptions. He's not entirely close-minded, one might say. To me, this highlights one of the key components of creating a society free from gender-inequality: open-minded-ness. Teacake is a good husband and human not because he has an inherently less sexist worldview than Janie's previous husbands, but because he is able to incorporate more mature thought and ideas into his worldview.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I hope everyone's getting in a good last week of summer.
In this book I could not help but notice that Janie is always expected to not partake in discussions, and always serve the men in the town without needing to be told twice and to go and fetch anything that the men need. When I first started reading these scenes with this type of interactions, I was a bit surprised seeing how the men didn’t really do much for themselves and always had the women get them things. And the women would be obedient wives, and get their husbands whatever they needed. I kept thinking that these women were like the men’s own personal servants, and would do almost anything they asked, because they were the ones who provided for them.The way the men treat the women, especially how Joe Starks treated Janie in the store, I just didn’t see what the point of the over-reactions to the tiniest things were and trying to prove himself the man with control. The women are treated like they don’t have minds of their own, and like they don’t have their own voices, and they only live to serve the men, cook for them, and raise their children. However, in certain parts of the book, it displays both men and women’s views of each others wisdom. There is a part when the men are talking about women and they are saying they have no brains and they think they are so smart when they have no idea what they are talking about and whatnot. Then Janie goes into the conversation and says that women know a lot more than men do in some ways.
ReplyDeleteJulian
ReplyDeleteI find it interesting the extremes to which Janies first and second husbands push the topics of gender and sexism. Janies first husband Logan Killicks seems to take sexism to an extreme, in that he basically owns her and can make her do whatever he wants her to do. He seems to treat her extremely nice, just so that he can trap her in to a position where he can make her do work. On the other side, Joe seems to take sexism to a whole different extreme. He views her as weaker than men. She needs to be pampered and taken care of. It’s not her place to take part in many of the conversations that the townspeople have. It also is in his mind not the place of a woman to take part in activities such as dragging the mule out of town. It seems that her first husband made her do things she wished not to do, and her second husband restricted her from what she really wanted to do. Both men are sexist in their own ways, and neither really seems to better than the other, though it seems Joe really does think he’s doing the right thing, whereas Logan didn’t really seem to care.
I agree with what Rose was saying about Joe. Though he was a great person for controlling the town and organizing it, he uses this controlling attitude in his marriage with Janie. This attitude has a negative effect in their marriage and as soon as Janie tries to show any control or power in their relationship, he feels as though he has been emasculated completely and will not speak to her. The way he ignores her because of this is completely and utterly immature.
ReplyDeleteIn response to what Ami and Rose said, I found it really interesting to read the change in Joe in his marriage with Janie, from when he has no power to when he has a lot. When he first meets Janie, he is extremely sweet to her, and as soon as he has substantial power in the town, this power transfers over into the marriage, in which he goes from being sweet and caring to controlling and abrasive. Something similar happened in Janie's first marriage; Logan starts out very sweet and seemingly willing to do anything for Janie, and abruptly becomes less and less kind and more and more demanding. I think it also has to do with power but more in the sense that he didn't 'have' Janie before so he had to work for her, and now that he thinks she's indefinitely his, he feels as though he has some power of her and therefore feels like he can control her.
ReplyDeleteOne of the many things I noticed towards the end of the book is the miss trust between many of the characters. For example when Lias told Tea Cake about the storm, Tea Cake did not care to listen to him because he believed that he knew the land more than everyone, that nothing of such storm would occur. Another moment is when the black folks mistrust Janie for killing Tea Cake intentionally. Personally I thought they were stupid or dumb or both because it shows their insecure mind in thinking that Janie would kill Tea Cake, I mean really Janie would have died for Tea Cake. Never the less, some of the people never really understood each other, so maybe that's where the mistrust comes from.
ReplyDelete"De nigger woman is de mule uh de world so fur as i can see. Ah been prayin' fuh it tuh be different with you. LAWD, LAWD, LAWD!" (14)
ReplyDeleteWhile this passage is partially about race it is also apparent that the struggles of women is an apparent theme in the book. The depressing message that nanny is sending to Janie is a wake up call that she must marry inorder to have a good life and positively represent strong african american women. Janie is nieve and believes that being in love is more significant then being an independent woman. This sets Janie up for the tribulations in her future like Jody Starks and her unsuccessful marriage with Brother Logan Killicks. The wisdom that nanny imparts on Janie and the relationships that Janie has with all the men in her life starting with the kiss at 16 and going all the way to the death of Tea Cake are catalysts for Janie's development as a women.
I’d like to add on to what Haven said about Nanny’s lessons to Janie. Janie has no choice but to take Nanny’s strong advice because she has taken care of her for her entire life, even though she knows deep down that what Nanny tells her is not how she wants to live her life. It takes her a long time to break free from the standards that Nanny set but she finally does when she marries Tea Cake.
ReplyDeleteIn the story it seems that the more beauty a woman possesses: the more power she has over men. In Janie’s case, it’s a double edged sword since in the story the higher attraction raises the like of more freedom since she has a greater chance of winning a man but again: the more attractive she is: the more likely she’ll excite envy and jealousy along with feelings of deep affection. Janie’s “whiteness” gives her more freedom but it also exposes her to more cruelty.
ReplyDeletehi all. Hope you've had a good summer.
ReplyDeleteI’ve noticed that for the most part men are sexist, but the women don’t seem to find this wrong or unfair. Janie, however, notices this and she doesn’t like it. At the end of the book, when she has finished telling her story, she says that there are “two things everybody’s got tuh do fuh theyselves. They got tuh go tuh God, and they got tuh find out about livin’ fuh theyselves.”(192) It’s as if she wants other women to notice how unfairly they are treated, to realize that marriage doesn’t create love, but love marriage. I think that she tried to live for herself and that’s why she went with Tea Cake against everybody’s advice, because it was what she wanted. She feels that following ones heart is the right thing to do because she has seen what happens when you don’t. She’s been in a loveless marriage, with Logan Killicks, which she ran away from because she followed her heart and it told her to go with Joseph Starks. But her relationship with Logan, while better then that with Starks, wasn’t what she wanted. He was too bossy, which kept her from following her heart because he wanted to think for her and his heart and hers were not the same. So after his death she went with Tea Cake because in him she found the relationship she wanted: love and be loved.
I’ve noticed that Janie doesn't like authority figures, and I think that's part of why she emphasizes the way men act towards women, as if they own them, often throughout her various relationships.
ReplyDeleteHi, it’s Lev. I want to talk about a fairly major theme in the book: Oppression of women. Women would not be allowed to do things that they would be able to do now a days. It seems to happen almost routinely in the dialogue, for example on page 93 she says to Pheoby: "Tain't that I worry over Joe’s death, Pheoby. Ah just loves this freedom." when Tea Cake invites Janie to play checkers, she thinks "Somebody wanted her to play. Somebody found it natural for her to play." And this makes Janie think even more about how oppressive her marriage with Joe was. Or on page 147 When Tea Cake feels jealous that Janie is getting attention from other men "Before the week was over he [Joe] had whipped Janie. Not because her behavior had justified his jealousy, but it relived the awful fear inside him. Being able to whip her reassured him in possession." One of the most moving examples of oppression to me is when Nanny says to Janie "De nigger woman is the mule of de world as far as I can see. Ah been prayin' fuh it tuh be different wid you." While we may be shocked by this, I think that Zora Neale Hurston included it because it was a part of the culture at that time, and it makes the book seem more real.
ReplyDeleteTo comment on what Emiko said about Janie’s marriages, I think that what Janie’s first two marriages lacked was respect, more than they lacked love. I believe that both Logan and Joe loved Janie, and Janie loved Joe at first but they did not respect her or give her any freedom. They both thought they could tell her what to do where as Tea Cake gave her freedom to make her own choices and was kind to her, as well as loved her.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Emma that a lack of respect was the main dysfunction in Janie's first two marriages. However, I think love still does have something to do with it. Janie's husbands may have loved her in a way, and she may have tried to love them, but their relationships weren't as natural as Tea Cake and Janie's. Logan and Janie married because of Janie's grandmother, while Joe simply represented freedom from her first marriage, but Tea Cake is the first man Janie truly falls in love with before marrying him. Tea Cake respects Janie, unlike either of her other husbands, but I also think Janie does love Tea Cake more than either of her other husbands, and that's why their relationship works.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure if this has been touched on already, but I just wanted to comment on the relationship between Janie's hair and her womanhood. She is consistently noticed for her hair, many men are attracted to it, and it causes many men to be envious as well. When Joe is threatened by Janie, he makes her tie up her hair, yet as soon as he is gone, she lets down her hair, showing that she has still managed to maintain her womanhood and independence. Ultimately, Janie manages to stay in control of her hair, and womanhood, using them for her own good and power.
ReplyDeleteMisha,
ReplyDeleteI believe that it is less her womanhood, and more her freedom that is portrayed through her hair. This is not a fact, just how I see it.
In response to Isaiah’s post: I would have to disagree with you I believe that Janie’s beauty limits her freedom. An example of this is after Jody dies and she finally has freedom everyone wants to take it away. Janie’s many suitors are interested in her because of her beauty and wealth. Every time Janie tries to be free someone else tries to limit her and keep her beauty away from others, such as the time that Jody made her cover her hair in the store because he did not want other men to touch it. Janie is restricted by people who crave for her beauty.
ReplyDeleteGabe,
ReplyDeleteI completely agree, I would even say it is a mix of her womanhood and her freedom. When she lets her hair down, she is relishing in the freedom of it, along with embracing herself as a woman, because she is aware of the strong power her hair has over men.
Regardless, i think the conflict is her inner search for satisfaction is some respect. I had trouble wording my first post, and am finding that I completely agree with Carrie
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with Carrie. Joe and Logan are both attracted to her because of her hair, as are some of the men in the town, and this causes them to be sweet to her, but it also causes them to reduce her to her looks and refuse to see beyond them, completely restraining her personality and forcing it to be unseen. An example of this is with the speech that Joe stops her from making. He comments that she can't make a speech because that's not her skill, and that her purpose, and the reason he married her, was her beauty. (And he adds on that she does household work, but that was required of all women at the time.) The fact that Joe forces Janie to bind up her hair with a cloth in the store symbolizes this lack of freedom.
ReplyDeleteLogan just wanted to marry her because she was pretty and Joe wanted like a woman to do womanly duties within his own house, in the beginning he was actually a good husband but as he got older he got grumpy rude and treated Janie horribly. She found Tea Cake my chance and he ended up being the perfect catalyst to what she wants (but doesn't know he wants) which is true independence away from men. However she finds true love in Tea Cake but kills him for her rights to a life.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Daniel Loose's post:
ReplyDeleteI definetly agree that Janie takes an increasingly maculine tone as the novel progresses. Adding to this is the fact that she is nearly twice as old as Tea Cake (40&25) which makes her his senior and provides if not a dominant place in the relationship, a more equal one.
hello,
ReplyDeletei agree with Todd that it seems that both genders cannot get along. the men are constantly treating the women badly, like not teaching them how to play games or sometimes beating them. the women, however, often think of the men as brutes (sometimes understandably) and also consider the men to be trying to think of ways to con them. i'm not saying that all of the characters are like this, like how Tea-cake teaches Janie checkers and then hunting, and how Janie refuses to believe when Pheoby suspects that Tea-cake is only out for Janie's money.
of course, there are plenty of examples of mistreatment between genders. for example, when all of Janie's husbands beat her at least once, or when Janie's narration refers to the men on the porch as "mules and other brutes" (1)
Hi, it's Ben G.P. again,
ReplyDeleteI just wanted to respond briefly to Misha and Gabe's posts...
First of all, in response to Gabe and Misha's posts, that's exactly how I saw/see it. Although I feel more strongly that her hair more symbolizes her freedom. I say that because she let her hair down for herself, to enjoy the feeling of it against her shoulders and to be able to do what SHE wanted with HER body, if you know what I'm saying. After being tied down, almost literally, throughout her marriage with Joe I believe it's a more realistic idea that she was enjoying her freedom through her hair. Not to be redundant, but through my eyes and my interpretation, her objective was not solely to relish her womanhood as much as her freedom, although that may very well have been a part of it.
Uhh sorry about mentioning the responding to their posts twice that sounds really weird, my bad haha.
ReplyDeleteI think Simone is right about how Janie's marriage with Teacake is more natural than her other two marriages, as it is the only marriage where Janie gets to know her partner before marrying him.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Gabe, I think all of Janie's marriages are "natural". Each marriage shows the different struggles one faces when you search for different "reasons" to get married. In the sense that Teacake and Janie got to know each other first, I think that's more ideal than natural. Janie's first marriage was the only one out of the three that felt artificially produced.
ReplyDeleteoh yeh ^ ari
ReplyDeleteAri,
ReplyDeleteI mostly agree with your comment, but I would even go so far as to say they are the different struggles one faces when one searches for different reasons to live, and be happy.
-Gabe V.
I agree with Abraham that Joe Starks is not an ideal leader. From the get go Starks's intention in creating a town was to have a sense of control and power, not to improve the quality of life for others. He decides to go to Eatonville because it is the only place where he would have a high enough class to take control. "It had always been his desire to be a big voice and he had to live nearly thirty years to find a chance" (28).
ReplyDeleteGabe- I think another way of saying it is trial and error. The three marriages all gave a very different perspective on life, Logan Killicks being normal middle class, Joe Starks being high class and rich, and, if Janie hadn't married Teacake with so much money, a lower class life just getting by through gambling and little work.
ReplyDeleteIf one were to marry someone because they were rich that would be one thing. If someone were to marry another because they genuinely had feelings for them, and being rich was just an added bonus, that's another.